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ER32 v ER40

Pete F

Titanium
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Location
Sydney, Australia
G'day guys, sorry another newbie question to sigh at ;)

I'm looking at getting an ER collet set for my lathe with an MT3 spindle. I was originally going to get an ER32 set however see the same source has an ER40 collet chuck which will also fit. Apart from cost, is there any disadvantage with simply going with the largest ER series available? Obviously that will give me a much larger range of work holding.

Also, assuming the same M12 drawbar in the mill (also MT3) presumably I could use the same set to hold cutters? The more I can interchange between the two the cheaper it will be.

Cheers,
Pete
 
One consideration would be the physical size of the retaining nut, no big problem on the lathe, but could cause clearance issues when used in the mill.
 
G'day guys, sorry another newbie question to sigh at ;)

I'm looking at getting an ER collet set for my lathe with an MT3 spindle. I was originally going to get an ER32 set however see the same source has an ER40 collet chuck which will also fit. Apart from cost, is there any disadvantage with simply going with the largest ER series available? Obviously that will give me a much larger range of work holding.

Also, assuming the same M12 drawbar in the mill (also MT3) presumably I could use the same set to hold cutters? The more I can interchange between the two the cheaper it will be.

Cheers,
Pete

ER40 is pretty BIG, I would take a hard look at the whole range of collet ID's avail. The ER40 may not go as small as ER32 does ?? We used ER32 for a whole lot of work in 50 taper Horizontal machine centers....we only used ER40 for 1" and larger stuff. The ER40 collets would cost quite a bit more I would think than ER32. Also take a look at the proper torque for an ER40 collet.

http://www.parlec.com/pages/straight_shank_er_collet_chucks

ER32 is 100 ft lbs, ER40 is 146 ft lbs (some tasks may not require full torque)

While the ER are designed to span sizes, they work MUCH better if you have a collet that is "on size" for what your holding in it. That opinion comes from setting over 5000 tools a year for just over 4 years which were mostly in ER32 collets.

http://www.rego-fix.com/catalog/pdfs/02_Collets.pdf

Rego fix has a lot of "half" sizes

The ER40 will also hang out of the end of a Bport type spindle more than ER32, resulting in more overhang.

Bill
 
In trying to maintain equal or at least close gage lengths between an ER32 and ER40 collet chuck sometimes the internal wall thicknesses get too thin on the ER40 type. Over time they tend to crack and then suddenly split in half. It has been proven that this happens always on Friday afternoon when a hot job is due Monday. I would stick with the ER32 style. It will actually be stronger than the Er40, unless the ER40 model is 1.5 inches longer but then you lose rigidity from the longer reach.
 
I always add that there are nut seal collet nuts avail for ER systems, and they ARE really nice even if your not running coolant because they keep crap out of the holder :-)...they do add a bit of length. The sealed ER collets may have the sealing compound dissolved by some coolants...so the nut seals that use viton O-rings are nicer IMHO.

Bill
 
Excellent, thanks guys! Looks like ER32 it is then. I haven't bought the milling machine yet, but am pretty sure I know what I'll get. Like I said maybe there are better spindle options, but having the lathe, drill press and mill all with the same taper will have obvious advantages for a hack like me just pottering about at home not wanting to spend a year's salary on tooling!

I've seen a system where the cutter is screwed into the collet before the collet is tightened. I have no idea what the the system is called but wonder if it's available in the ER series? Presumably it was established for CNC applications with a defined cutter height, but I like the idea that there is absolutely no way the cutter can pull out. Also, basically part #2 of my original question. Assuming I get the ER32 MT3 collet chuck for the lathe, can the same chuck/collets go from work holding in the lathe to cutter holding in the mill? Presumably MT3 chucks are a standard length so the M12 drawbar will just screw in.

Pete
 
In trying to maintain equal or at least close gage lengths between an ER32 and ER40 collet chuck sometimes the internal wall thicknesses get too thin on the ER40 type. Over time they tend to crack and then suddenly split in half. It has been proven that this happens always on Friday afternoon when a hot job is due Monday. I would stick with the ER32 style. It will actually be stronger than the Er40, unless the ER40 model is 1.5 inches longer but then you lose rigidity from the longer reach.

Frank, i surely hope you aren't describing your own tool holders.
 
I've seen a system where the cutter is screwed into the collet before the collet is tightened. I have no idea what the the system is called but wonder if it's available in the ER series? Presumably it was established for CNC applications with a defined cutter height, but I like the idea that there is absolutely no way the cutter can pull out. Also, basically part #2 of my original question. Assuming I get the ER32 MT3 collet chuck for the lathe, can the same chuck/collets go from work holding in the lathe to cutter holding in the mill? Presumably MT3 chucks are a standard length so the M12 drawbar will just screw in.
Pete

The threaded shank end mill system you have seen is most probably Posilock, AKA Clarkson? and its quite right that the end mills can't escape - unless you have the mill spinning the wrong way.

I use Posilock myself but it is not a common system in Oz although one advantage of that is that not too many people bid on the threaded shank end mills when they are on ebay.

Back to the ER32 collets. I spent a fair bit of time seeing what was available in Oz and all I could find were sets of unknown parentage ranging in price from $100 on ebay to $400/$500 from tool suppliers

Best deal for me to get collets of assured accuracy was from MariTool, see post #4. Bought 20 metric and 2 imperial collets and airmail to Oz recently for AU$220?

Usual disclaimers.

Email me if you have more queries coldesigATgil.com.au
 
Thanks Bob, yes I was just browsing through the H&F catalogue and saw the Posilock chucks and thought that was them. Some time ago I thought I would give some light milling a go in my drill press (pretty big one), but only a Jackobs chuck. Ergh, only light passes, all the warnings I'd read couldn't possibly be true...what can possibly go wrong! Well you know how that story ends :bawling: Since seeing how spectacular the show is when a cutter pulls out I'm rather keen to avoid repeating that circus act!

The collets I'm looking at are cheap-ass ebay ones. Normally I'm not one to buy twice but I'm still doing a heck of a lot of learning at the moment and they'll do for now.

Thanks Pipe, I will need to make the drawbar for the lathe but that shouldn't be a major manufacturing exercise, even for me. However I will need to have the chuck first to know the length.
 
To specifically address your question as to whether the same collets are suited to lathe work and for holding milling cutters:

Ideally, lathe collets are longer in their grip length, whereas milling collets are kept short - partly because milling cutters have short shanks, partly to keep the overhang down.

However the only longer options are traditional collets, each of which has a very small diameter variation which it will grip (and damage happens if you try to grip smaller stock) OR rubberflex types (or Pratt / Burnerd or Crawford, "Multisize") which are rare and expensive.

In practice the ER series seem to work pretty well in a lathe. Possibly you'd go for tailstock support slightly sooner (with increasing overhang) than with old school.

The need for a small shop to get more bang out of limited bucks makes ER collets an amazing development. If you ever get into making up kit for tool and cutter grinding, they can serve there as well. They are a relative delight to use - one of those ideas which work as well in practice as they look good on paper. I was wary about cutter pullout for a while, being brought up on screwed shank cutters, but provided you don't buy rubbish, and torque them up properly, it seems they're reliable.

I had to send back the first holder I bought: the nut wouldn't pull far enough on to close the collets down to the bottom size, regardless whose collets I used. I'd specified I didn't want a Chinese holder, and was told this was Taiwanese, but I have several reasons for mistrusting that, and the vendor admitted it was hearsay only. They came up with a LAIP (Spanish) holder with a two-piece nut (aka bearing nut) where the nut has a built in plain thrust bearing, so the collet is not being twisted into a (VERY slow) spiral by the tightening torque. It's a really nicely made item, a delight to use, and I personally think it makes no sense buying collet gear on price alone. In their embarassment, they sold it to me virtually at cost, anyhow.

One major advantage of ER collet holders (at least the Morse Taper ones) over most other types is that you can bury a long shank inside the hollow arbor. What's more, the collets are happy gripping on the flutes of a drill. This means that your jobber length drills can double as stub drills of exactly the right length, often eliminating the need to spot drill or centre drill.

Can also be advantageous sometimes to put the drill in backwards: a quick way of setting up over an existing hole in the job, especially if it's small.

If you've got drill sets in 0.1mm increments (or the old letter and number series) then you've effectively got a graduated set of spigots/ locators for free.

If you do buy cheap ER collets, set each one up in your lathe headstock with a drill blank, piece of drill rod, dowel, spotting drill (of failing anything better, a standard drill backwards) and check the total indicator runout of each collet near top and bottom of its size range. (It was by doing this that I diagnosed the inability of the holder I had to pull down to bottom size) Should be 0.003mm max for fair to good quality, your call for cheap collets. Make sure your lathe taper is true before making a Richard of yourself, if they all seem to run out by the same excessive order of TIR.
 
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Excellent, thanks for the great tips. I was particularly interested in the comment about the chuck being hollow as that's a definite plus. From my understanding if I were to use MT3 collets I could make up a drawtube and run any longer work out through it (obviously if not too large). Nevertheless the versatility of the ER range seems better for me. Think these cheapies will be a bit of a crap-shoot but cheap enough not to lose too much sleep if they don't come up to scratch.
Pete
 
You'll lose some sleep the first time a cutter pulls gradually out without your noticing, and you get one of those lovely cattle ramps milled down into the table of your mill !

I'd be inclined to draw a ring around the shank as high as you can reach with a marker pen or what have you, each time you put in a cutter

Keep an eye on whether a ring of shiny shank starts to appear and grow above your line.

Another use for these great pieces of kit: instead of a tailstock chuck in the lathe, if your usual chuck is deficient in accuracy, max holding diameter, and/or gripping power. Just be sure to put a suitably modified bolt in the end of the shank to make a dummy tang so you can eject it, if you've that sort of tailstock....
 
Bobw,
I currently do not offer and MT3-collet chucks. I am just giving some insight to what I have heard from my customers. It is always a struggle when making tool holders to maintain a fine line between short gage length and enough wall thickness.
 








 
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