How useful would a 5-axis milling and 3D-printing machine be?

I am an engineering student working with a group to develop a machine with applications in prototyping and manufacturing. Before I devote an extensive effort to the design, I am gathering information on the potential usefulness and demand for such a device. I am aware that the actual usefulness will depend heavily on whether or not the machine can actually be made, but for the sake of argument and some initial opinions, suppose that it functions as described.

The goal is to create CNC machine that can perform both high-precision milling and 3D-printing operations in 5-axis, although probably not on the same part. 3D printing will be done with the standard range of plastics, and milling will be done on materials ranging in hardness from foam to aluminum. The machine's maximum work area and fabrication size is estimated by a cube of side length approximately 30 centimeters.

Similar versions of this technology exist already and are used in large industries, but cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am hoping that this design will be affordable to hobbyists, community makerspaces, craftsmen and small businesses in need of some manufacturing ability.

Since many here have experience with using manufacturing technology such as 3D-printers, CNC mills, or lathes to create a prototype or product, please consider answering any of following questions.

- What are the most significant challenges or barriers you face when you want to prototype or manufacture a complex item?

- What resources are typically expended to perform the prototyping or manufacturing, in terms of time, money, etc.?

- What (if anything) annoys you the most about conventional machines or machining processes that you use regularly?

- Can you recall any instances when, if you had been able to access a machine that could perform 3D printing and milling in 5-axis, the item would have been significantly easier to produce, or there may have been new design possibilities?

- Would purchasing and having permanent access to such a machine prove valuable for you, in terms of either time or money? (And if so, what price range would you consider for such a machine before the cost exceeds the value?)

Replies can be posted in the forum or sent to me via email at [email protected]. Thank you very much to any who contribute opinions and feedback.

Different machines for different processes.

Useless.

About the worst mix possible- as they work against each other, and crosss-contaminate each other, and the value drivers are totally different on the work done.

Ok, so the idea was that the same machine could perform both operations on the same bed or possibly have interchangeable beds. Realistically, nobody would ever do this on the same part except possibly to 3D-print something with supports and then mill them away with high precision.

The core of the idea and ultimately what I was looking for feedback on was the "low cost 5-axis milling machine" part. The fact that it may also save you the need to buy a separate 3D-printer is less important.

DMG have a machine that does most of what you describe. It has a laser sintering head as a tool. The workpice created in this way can then be milled in the same machine. I suggest you have a close look at their specifications and videos.

When you go into this business.
Have you considered the cost of a full time service staff, spare parts sitting on the shelf, demo machines that never get sold and the other support functions?
Coming up with a machine design is the easy and low cost part.
Bob

Kauff_K said:

Similar versions of this technology exist already and are used in large industries, but cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I am hoping that this design will be affordable to hobbyists, community makerspaces, craftsmen and small businesses in need of some manufacturing ability.

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Theres no way. If its affordable, it'll be absolute garbage.

CarbideBob said:

When you go into this business.
Have you considered the cost of a full time service staff, spare parts sitting on the shelf, demo machines that never get sold and the other support functions?
Coming up with a machine design is the easy and low cost part.
Bob

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This is pretty far ahead of where I'm at. What I'm looking for now is sufficient interest to indicate that we should make a prototype. If the prototype works and leads to a model that can actually perform well and doesn't cost many tens of thousands of dollars, then we'll consider getting in to the actual business.

John Welden said:

Theres no way. If its affordable, it'll be absolute garbage.

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Again, this is ahead of where my group is at right now. Right now all we have are designs. It is possible, or even likely, that after we begin building this machine for real we will discover that it is impossible to provide a useful level of quality at an affordable price.

What we're looking for right now is whether it's even worth trying to engineer it. What I mean is that putting effort into a prototype and discovering that there is no way to get the machine up to the desired functionality is an acceptable failure of the project, but finishing a prototype that works great and then discovering that nobody wants it anyways would be an unacceptable failure.

Essentially, my entire post can be reduced down to "If by some magic an affordable 5-axis machine could be created, would it be useful and would people go to the trouble of buying it?"

More exact arguments can be reserved for the future, such as "Suppose it does perform worse than the $125,000 model, how much worse can it be before it's completely useless?"

The issue with 2-in-1 machines, from a shop floor standpoint, is that a problem with one function of the machine usually makes the other half of the machine inoperable. Certainly the 2nd function has to be taken off line when repairing (or doing a setup on) the first.

When processes are isolated to individual machines more capability can remain online continuously.

That is why such machines are a very very hard sell.

.

Kauff_K said:

More exact arguments can be reserved for the future, such as "Suppose it does perform worse than the $125,000 model, how much worse can it be before it's completely useless?"

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Are you talking an FDM machine with 5 axis milling capability?

Or are you taking an SLS machine with 5 axis milling capability?

Or what?

CNC tools are pretty competitive. What aspect of the machine do you propose to remove cost from? The controls are largely legacy designs, so there is some fat compared to a new clean sheet, but there are also years of accumulated robustness and expertise buried below archaic chips. Motors are motors and ball screws are ball screws, not a ton of room to economize unless you want to make the machine slow. Even then, you can only go so far. Have you come up with an inexpensive backlash free stiff rotary axis? If so, patent it and go build a real machine tool around the technology.

If none of that, what makes what you propose to build something the big guys couldn't already do? They have facilities already, some economy of scale, experience and the network in place. If anyone had a professionally usable 5 axis up their sleeve for fifty grand, they would not hold back.

if I had to guess, I'd say this sounds like an enthusiastic response to a brainstorming by a group of neophytes to what is really required to machining. The best example I can think of a multiple use machine is a Shopsmith. Its a wood lathe, its a table saw,, its a belt sander, its a drill press....The uninitiated get sll exited about buying a whole woodshop in one machine. Then the reality sets in; it isn't nearly as good as having all those machines separately. You spend more time changeing it from one configuration to another, the 'project' remains unfinished ad the machine ends up as a place to hang the garden hose. A table top 3-D printer can make shit. A table top 5 axis machine center, in theory can make shit.. but that is in theory. the accuracy of the printer maybe ain't so good and the rigidity required ain't much. 5 axis machining is a quantum leap in rigidity. not to mention a tool changer and programing 5 axis at speed to 3 axis..slowly.

You should probably take a look at these guys:

Hybrid Manufacturing Technologies - Hybrid Manufacturing Technologies

They were at IMTS '16 and already have an SLS / Sintering / Cladding head that you can put into "any" CNC VMC (HMC too?). Supposedly it will even work with your existing tool changers (not sure how it will deal with coolant though).

IIRC it was also being demo'd live in the Mazak booth. Similar in conceptual operation to the DMG Mori Lasertec machines.

Note: It's not cheap... I can't recall the ballpark price he threw at me, but was very high...


If you're looking at the low-end, you're going to compete against a bunch of tiny startups already offering plastic-only 3D printing and light duty plastic / aluminum milling:
• BoXZY | Three-In-One 3D Printer, CNC Mill and Laser Engraver
• Automation
• Formaker 4-in-1 CNC Mill, Laser, PCB, 3-D Printer All-In-One

These machines can only make toys or very low-fidelity early prototypes at best. You can't really make production quality parts with machines like these...

Mooner said:

You should probably take a look at these guys:

Hybrid Manufacturing Technologies - Hybrid Manufacturing Technologies

They were at IMTS '16 and already have an SLS / Sintering / Cladding head that you can put into "any" CNC VMC (HMC too?). Supposedly it will even work with your existing tool changers (not sure how it will deal with coolant though).

IIRC it was also being demo'd live in the Mazak booth. Similar in conceptual operation to the DMG Mori Lasertec machines.

Note: It's not cheap... I can't recall the ballpark price he threw at me, but was very high...


If you're looking at the low-end, you're going to compete against a bunch of tiny startups already offering plastic-only 3D printing and light duty plastic / aluminum milling:
• BoXZY | Three-In-One 3D Printer, CNC Mill and Laser Engraver
• Automation
• Formaker 4-in-1 CNC Mill, Laser, PCB, 3-D Printer All-In-One

These machines can only make toys or very low-fidelity early prototypes at best. You can't really make production quality parts with machines like these...

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I watched the vid on the hybrid. Admittedly, it looks very cool, but in essence, why? They show them depositing material into a rough shape very s l o w, then machining it to finish. I can't help but think how much faster that would be to machine from solid. Ok, you waste material that way, but if it's volume, you go into casting, so there seems to be it is such a limited market, with other ways to achieve the same thing...

Mike1974 said:

I watched the vid on the hybrid. Admittedly, it looks very cool, but in essence, why? They show them depositing material into a rough shape very s l o w, then machining it to finish. I can't help but think how much faster that would be to machine from solid. Ok, you waste material that way, but if it's volume, you go into casting, so there seems to be it is such a limited market, with other ways to achieve the same thing...

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I tend to agree... I think there are very specialized applications where it **might** make sense, but generally will not be cost effective...

I guess my point was more along the lines that there are already competitors far ahead of where OP Kauff's team might be starting from. So they would need to have some unique capability / performance / price point to make a good business case...

To me it does not make much sense to attach a FDM printer to a mill. A mill is designed to cut metal and you are wasting the heavy duty construction on hours of printing.

Thermwood has come out with a 3d printer 5 axis router combo that I think does make sense. It is designed for making big parts where material savings and labour gluing up large blocks of material are substantial. The 3d printing lays down a heavy build layer I would guess by looking at it in videos it is 1/4" -3/8" thick and 3/4"-1" wide a bead of plastic. So builds are fairly fast and then the part can be cut to give a good finish.

One way I think their machine could be built much cheaper while still maintaining quality is by only going with a 3 axis router. The printer could build 2-3" then machine the part, then print another few inches then machine...

I think it will be difficult to combine both milling and 3D printing in a useful machine.

Milling machines need to have a lot of power in the spindle, which means it is heavy. Milling machines also need a good amount of power to move the axes against tool pressure. The machine needs to be stiff for this reason also. This means weight, again.

3D printers typically need much greater axis speed than most mills, and so the parts are made as light as possible. Since the machine has essentially zero tool pressure, power and stiffness are not needed.

Spend a lot of money and you can do it. Trying to make an inexpensive machine that combines power, stiffness, and speed is likely to be very difficult.

Hybrid designs are most often lcd designs. Remember the car that turned into a boat?