Thread: How would you do (hog) this lathe work? And question of tooling...

First off machine: 1956 Cincinnati 15x54 traytop 5 HP, 15" 4-jaw, Dorian QCTP "CA" size, HSS parting blade in an Aloris holder, 3/8" Kennametal inserted carbide tooling in a mix of Aloris, Dorian and import tool holders

The task: I'm making a few dies for my ring roller

Work is 3" round steel solid, cut up into just over 3" length blanks (so I can face the ends flat and be at exactly 3" OAL). First step get them centered up, face flat, pilot drill, drill 3/16" thru then step up to 5/8" for the pins they rotate upon, this part I had no problem with

Yesterday evening I made the first one for rolling 1" square tubing. I made a flat sided slot 1" wide 3/4" deep in the center of the 3" blank with a slight radius at the corners to support rounded edges.

I made the first one by using a parting tool to cut the outside flat sides, then used an inserted carbide RH tool to cut down most of it, then had to switch to a LH tool to fit in what I couldn't (reach without rubbing) with the RH tool. This took a long time for reasons detailed below, and I'm curious what I can do to speed up my process for the next few I intend to make for the pairing for this first one, and other ones to roll different sized stock.

I'm still "tooling up" and have been using a fair bit left over from my first metal lathe, a Logan 12", which I realize is quite a bit undersized for what this lathe can do (the inserted stuff of which is 3/8" shank, I have mostly 3/4" and a couple 1" capable CA tool holders for the QCTP).

Now obviously to take advantage of the increased rigidity and HP this machine has to offer I need to move up in size on the tool to something more along the lines of 3/4" shank and a bigger insert, I get that. While that will increase the DOC I can cut at, it won't change the amount of tool changes I had to make in order to make this happen.

One thing I was wondering, does anyone make a "V" shaped tool for roughing up to flat sides when you're cutting in a channel? Or is this something I should just buy a blank and try making myself? Other suggestions for this largely self-taught machining n00b would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by greenbuggy

First off machine: 1956 Cincinnati 15x54 traytop 5 HP

....Or is this something I should just buy a blank and try making myself? Other suggestions for this largely self-taught machining n00b would be appreciated.

As of roughly ten years later - mid 1960's - carbide was still far from dominant. What was available at the time was one, two, or all three of a) more fragile than it is today, b) more costly relative to HSS, and c) more costly as to justifying its use in time saved against the wages of the day.

AS it was coming into use, lathes of this vintage and far, far older were being 'up engined' in many shops to provide the greater power and higher RPM that were wanted to make effective use of carbide. Where I was working we had uprated ~ 16" machines of that very sort to typically 15-25 HP, and 24-30" to as much as 50 HP. And still used HSS about five to one vs inserted carbide and 3 to 1 against brazed-on Carboloy.

So not only would a hand-ground HSS tool be workable, depending on material, (SS was far less common at the time, titanium still truly exotic) you may find HSS a better fit to that machine in general than even today's very much improved and more economical carbides.

Shaping and setting such a tool isn't 'Rocket Science', but ability to do so rapidly, to an appropriate shape, manage chip control, finish, and working life was a very large portion of what a machinist was judged on.

Well worth the effort to learn it.

Bill

Since the word hogging was used, I present this from 1915. No carbide dreamed of yet, but they were doing impressive metal removal nonetheless. See boarder around lathe picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...W/1915Adsm.jpg

Now obviously to take advantage of the increased rigidity and HP this machine has to offer I need to move up in size on the tool to something more along the lines of 3/4" shank and a bigger insert, I get that. While that will increase the DOC I can cut at, it won't change the amount of tool changes I had to make in order to make this happen.

One thing I was wondering, does anyone make a "V" shaped tool for roughing up to flat sides when you're cutting in a channel? Or is this something I should just buy a blank and try making myself? Other suggestions for this largely self-taught machining n00b would be appreciated.

By "V-shape" am I correct that you want a 35 or 55 degree diamond insert oriented in the neutral position? In other words presented straight out of the tool holder so you can profile left and right?

Also, I have a new 3/4" indexable lathe tool and inserts that I was going to ebay.. if your interested shoot me a message. They should work beautifully on that machine.

Good luck
X

Originally Posted by johnoder

Since the word hogging was used, I present this from 1915. No carbide dreamed of yet, but they were doing impressive metal removal nonetheless. See boarder around lathe picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...W/1915Adsm.jpg

.. bragging, as they were as to what could be done with the then-still-new 'High Speed' steels.

Still in common use then, and in my own toolbox yet today, was a good deal of mere 'high carbon' steels, as had dominated turning and boring in the hundred and more years prior to 1915. Mine made from salvaged files and power-hacksaw blades, and still most useful for quick 'ornamental' turning, such as rounding a bolt or rivet head, or placing a snap-ring groove, and freehand, partly 'coz they can be shaped faster on the grinder than can HSS and are still 'good enough' for many materials in common use - EG: brass, aluminium, plastics.

Carbide isn't the only choice - nor even HSS, nor either always the best one.

And 'old' or 'obsolete' doesn't mean 'useless'.

....Or so I try to convince the Lady Wife...

Bill

i would personally try to do with this kind of tool
MDT - Seco Tools

seco mdt can turn in both way and you can have different lenght for the tool so you can do 3/4 inch deep easily. plus you can get a complete radius insert (1/16 rad) so you can have nice rad corner in the bottom of your groove. youll save twice the time and wont have to change tool.

if you do alot of this kind of work i think it worth the money right there.

How many of these do you need to make.

Hogging!!! We plunge cut grooves that wide in 316 stainless castings every day, just not in a Cinci traytop.

If you want to spend $200 - $300 on tooling, get some Iscar insert part-off blades. Probably a GF4 (4mm wide) insert. You could plunge cut that groove in about 6 cuts then finish. Flood coolant @ 600 RPM.

Me, I'd use a P4W cobalt cut-off blade in my 15" lathe (Aloris CXA-7 holder) and take 6 cuts to rough then finish.
JR

Originally Posted by JRIowa

How many of these do you need to make.

Probably about three each of four different groove shapes.... more sets of three, one at a time, in years to come as need arises...

The task: I'm making a few dies for my ring roller
...
Yesterday evening I made the first one for rolling 1" square tubing.

Amazing the uproar that ensues when a single rabbit races through a pack of drowsing hounds...

;-)

Bill

Originally Posted by thermite

Probably about three each of four different groove shapes.... more sets of three, one at a time, in years to come as need arises...

Bingo, but I am still very interested in learning about what I need to do or do better in order to remove more metal faster for jobs like this one

Amazing the uproar that ensues when a single rabbit races through a pack of drowsing hounds...

;-)

Bill

Indeed. Didn't want to get anyones undies in a bunch over a HSS vs carbide debate, I want to know the most economical way(s) in which to remove more metal faster given the clearly stated constraints of my equipment and job at hand.

Originally Posted by JRIowa

How many of these do you need to make.

3 for now for the ring rolling I want to do in the next week or so. Have a bit more 3" round solid with the intentions of making more for rolling different sizes though, and will probably also make some more (very similar) dies for the hossfeld #2 bender I recently bought.

Hogging!!! We plunge cut grooves that wide in 316 stainless castings every day, just not in a Cinci traytop.

Fair enough, but I didn't have enough room to replace hog with "maximize material removal within the economic and design limitations of the equipment I have clearly stated and minimize tool changes to save time". At least I'm not trying to move mountains with a HF 7x10 mini-lathe...

I did try getting pretty aggressive with material removal and watching chip color with the 3/8" shank Kennametal inserted carbide, FWIW. I just can't help but feel like going with a bit bigger insert and a heavier shank would let me peel more metal off faster.

If you want to spend $200 - $300 on tooling, get some Iscar insert part-off blades. Probably a GF4 (4mm wide) insert. You could plunge cut that groove in about 6 cuts then finish. Flood coolant @ 600 RPM.

Me, I'd use a P4W cobalt cut-off blade in my 15" lathe (Aloris CXA-7 holder) and take 6 cuts to rough then finish.
JR

That's a bit more than I wanted to spend but good to know nonetheless. The parting tool I have and used to plunge the edges of the slot is an Aloris CA-7 import clone with a US made HSS 3/16" wide parting blade, which I did shape on my grinder/belt sander and then hone with a DTI diamond blade hone. I'm still learning, but I've definitely gotten better at shaping a parting tool.

Originally Posted by Krovvax

i would personally try to do with this kind of tool
MDT - Seco Tools

seco mdt can turn in both way and you can have different lenght for the tool so you can do 3/4 inch deep easily. plus you can get a complete radius insert (1/16 rad) so you can have nice rad corner in the bottom of your groove. youll save twice the time and wont have to change tool.

if you do alot of this kind of work i think it worth the money right there.

Thats more what I was imagining, I guess I should have specified in the OP when I said "V" shaped I meant with two (outside) cutting edges. Any idea how much those run?

Originally Posted by greenbuggy

Bingo, but I am still very interested in learning about what I need to do or do better in order to remove more metal faster for jobs like this one

IF I had to suddenly do a whole bunch of 'em on a very modest lathe and a very modest horizontal mill, had no money to add tooling not already in the drawer, and needed them to start going out the door 'Real Soon Now' in order to not starve....

I'd be batching 'em in three separate ops:

First op would drill and precision ream the bore on a decent drillpress.

Second op would rotate 'em in a fixture on the horizontal mill whilst 80% of the metal to be removed was chiplified by a stagger-tooth milling cutter. Don't even THINK about this with a BP - you'll just beat it up and waste time.

Third op on the lathe would take the roughed spools to desired shape and fine finish - and on an internal mandrel made for the purpose, rather than a chuck if I had my 'druthers, hence the drilling and reaming op on the DP.

With a STOUT lathe, skip the mill, optionally the pre-boring as well, and let the 4-way or QC toolpost earn its keep.

In more serious or 'factory' volume, such parts are bar-chucker or turret/capstan lathe food, and usually cheaper farmed-out than machineried-up for, as they are dirt-simple 'white bread' items a multitude of sources could bid. And a wise buyer orders 'em 80/20 from two disparate suppliers so as to always have a fallback.

Bill

use parting tool to do most of the work part down to dia req. move over just under blade thickness part to dia again move back take what you left inbetween if this is a U shape you wish to acheve start like this UUUUU end like this l____l profile example's

I go one further at work and use the parting tool to make all kinds of grooves in hydraulic pistons and such. I just plunge the cutoff tool to the depth of the groove at each edge, then go back in and plunge overlapping cuts to within .005 or so of desired finish groove bottom diameter. Finally, go back to the edge and take the full pass. Cutoff tool will tolerate a light cut like this. In the long run it's a lot faster than setting up three or four different tools to do the work (especially since all our lathes have those damned four position turret toolposts). If you have identically pre-set tooling in QC holders, you may be able to swap out fast enough to make it work, that way.

yeah, don't waste your time with the lh and rh tools, maybe a 1/4" wide tool, cut with most (not all) of the tool width after the first cut splitting up the passes evenly, cut to within 10 or 20 of width and leave 3-5 or so on dia for finish pass

Originally Posted by greenbuggy

Thats more what I was imagining, I guess I should have specified in the OP when I said "V" shaped I meant with two (outside) cutting edges. Any idea how much those run?

here in canada they worth around 250 to 300 for a kit (its the holder + 10 square insert) i know that the completly round insert are more expensive but once you work with this kind of tool you always find a different job to use it and be faster to do it :P i realy lioke this tool and would not have a shop without one in hand!