I have been searching the whole world for jewelry die makers.

kpotter · Sep 12, 2017

I make dies for the jewelry industry, and we have started recreating alot of the antique styles of jewelry from the early 1900s. I have been trying to find as much info as we can on how these dies were made. There is very little as far as books on the subject I think it was very secreative. I have been traveling around meeting people and buying up as many original hubs as we can. We have over 40 thousand master hubs right now. I have talked with many very old guys who made dies but even when someone is in their 90s they were still to not around when many of the die we have were made. I would ask them how they did it back then and they would describe a method and I would ask if they had ever actually made a die using that method and it was always no. A month ago I found a person who has made thousands of dies using old methods. The problem was he was 88 years old and he lives in Gaudlahra mexico and speaks no english. I really wanted to know how this stuff was done so we flew him and his son out and he spent a week teaching me. I learned more in the first day than I had in several years of trial and error. He learned in a die shop that made dies for the silver industry. The old ways hung around alot longer in mexico. He did ask why I didnt have an edm and a cnc machine. He knew how to run those and told me I needed to get with the times. I chased every living die maker I could find in the US but got pretty much nowhere. The work was so specialized here in the US that no one had a whole picture of how everything worked. We did everything from the model to the master tool steel hub. I almost went to mexico to work in his shop but he said it would be better for him to show me on my equipment. Thought I would share this here since I cant think of too many people who would find this interesting.

Milland · Sep 12, 2017

Great that you were able to find a master willing to teach his techniques. Something to be said for saving hard-earned knowledge, will you be passing along the methods?

PeteM · Sep 12, 2017

Cool story.

rustytool · Sep 12, 2017

I bet if you made a you tube video you'd find a lot of people that find it interesting.
Pretty cool that the old fellow told you to get with the times.

kustomizingkid · Sep 12, 2017

Kevin what I find most interesting is how your business has grown and changed... you have a real niche going and it seems to be going splendidly from what I have seen on Facebook land.

Bobw · Sep 12, 2017

He did ask why I didnt have an edm and a cnc machine. He knew how to run those and told me I needed to get with the times.

That's fricken funny.

lazz · Sep 12, 2017

Having visited your shop.... And seeing your work....
Then you say you are having trouble learning....
:bowdown:

I second the youtube video.... if not for us... it just might be around in a hundred years.... And be an inspiration for a new generation.

kpotter · Sep 12, 2017

What is funny is that to him all of these old hand made dies were junk, he loves modern cnc made stuff. He was cringing at all the old funky tool steel that they used and kept saying he thought I needed to get a real job. He told me all the jewelry die companies had closed in mexico and even his son was a really talented machinist was painting houses for a living. He was still working as a die maker for some US based companies that had their production done in mexico. He was really good and I learned how to recreate these dies in the exact ways of 100 years ago. I actually thought it was easier than how we do it now. I was pretty close to figuring everything out myself through experiments but to have someone give you a little guidence and some demos was priceless. I think it would have spent another couple years in trial and error before some of this stuff would have occurred to me. I took him to the mold shop down the street from me and he had the same wire edm and haas mill in the shop he worked in. He knew how to run and program all of the stuff even knew how to use the latest solid works program, I have no clue on any of it. I felt pretty silly hanging out with an 88 year old guy who not only knew old school stuff but was well versed in modern machine tools as well.

dqkyukim · Sep 12, 2017

Pantograph machine is traditional tool of choice for metal mold making for jewelry industry that is now being replaced by CNC mill and 3D Printer.
I would still love to learn from knowledge that you gathered and experienced for jewelry die making. I am using small CNC mill and magnesium block to carve out simple injection die for more precision jewelry.

TGTool · Sep 12, 2017

What a wonderful discovery and experience. It's great to see preservation as well as seeing someone like him move right into newer technology.

kpotter · Sep 12, 2017

I have hundreds of religeus dies that we can copy for you if you are interested. I can make male and female sides in tool steel if you need them. Most of them are from the early 1900s .

slnielsen · Sep 13, 2017

What a nice story.

3 weeks ago me and two colleagues went to a branch of our company in San Luis Potosi in Mexico.
Close to the city is an old mining town : Cerro de San Pedro - Wikipedia

There is a very small silver workshop there, and while visiting I actually thought of you Kevin, if he were using
some of your tools.

The had a lot of different jewelry, but a more crude design than we are used to in Europe.

Nice little place, with very good beer.

MattiJ · Sep 13, 2017

kpotter said:
He knew how to run and program all of the stuff even knew how to use the latest solid works program, I have no clue on any of it. I felt pretty silly hanging out with an 88 year old guy who not only knew old school stuff but was well versed in modern machine tools as well.

That's pretty good for 88 year old. I sure hope that I would be still in that good shape at that age.

And even if I have no clue about jewelry or die making it sure would be interesting to hear some of what you have learnt!

Jim Williams · Sep 13, 2017

Here is one individual who would be interested. I have made perhaps five jewelry dies on my GK-21 pantograph. Only one was three dimensional. The others created tie tack like pins with various legends. The three dimensional one used an original specialty car badge and created a pin 1/5 the size of the badge. This is the reason I would like to have one of your 100 ton pressses. I searched everywhere I could think of, and I could find no written instructions on die making. I got to know a person who made brass embossing dies for the paper industry. All the work he did was with punches, gravers, and rotary tools. I concluded that the jewelry dies were made the same way without going through making hubs. I encourage you to write up or video everything you have learned about hub and die making. The trade must have been handed down through a limited number of skilled craftsmen. If you can document what you have learned, it will help future crafts people in doing these things. I did see a film somewhere that showed some details of the beautiful work done in the silver wear industry. I have looked long and hard at the different things in my wife's antique Gorham Butterup silverware. If you can find time to do it, I suggest setting up a multi day seminar at your place. You could teach what you have learned, and perhaps learn from other interested people. It could be a gathering of interested individuals, like some of the engraving seminars, the model engineering meetings, and so on.

EPAIII · Sep 13, 2017

You may now be THE expert in the field. I also would encourage you to write it up so future craftsmen can study it.

Alberic · Sep 14, 2017

HI Kevin,

I saw somewhere that you'd gotten into the die game. You should *definitely* write down/video/document whatever you learned. As you've discovered, it's knowledge that's rapidly disappearing. That said, my next question after I saw what you were up to was "OK, what's the plan?" Almost nobody has the presses to run dies like that. Making them is cool, (and I applaud you) but what are you going to *do* with them?
One suggestion for die makers: East Germany. I was in Berlin last summer, at the "History of German Technology" museum. They have an entire East German jewelry manufacturing shop "under glass" in one of the back buildings. Very cool, with lots of dies. Germans in general do a lot of die work, and the 'old school' methods hung on a lot longer in the East. You might find some hand die makers left in the East, and if you do, I guarantee they'll be able to explain *exactly* why they do X, Y, or Z. Remember Brepohl started out as an East German book. (One of the few that ever made money in the West, as I understand it.)

Best of luck,
Brian

snowman · Sep 14, 2017

kpotter said:
I make dies for the jewelry industry, and we have started recreating alot of the antique styles of jewelry from the early 1900s. I have been trying to find as much info as we can on how these dies were made. There is very little as far as books on the subject I think it was very secreative. I have been traveling around meeting people and buying up as many original hubs as we can. We have over 40 thousand master hubs right now. I have talked with many very old guys who made dies but even when someone is in their 90s they were still to not around when many of the die we have were made. I would ask them how they did it back then and they would describe a method and I would ask if they had ever actually made a die using that method and it was always no. A month ago I found a person who has made thousands of dies using old methods. The problem was he was 88 years old and he lives in Gaudlahra mexico and speaks no english. I really wanted to know how this stuff was done so we flew him and his son out and he spent a week teaching me. I learned more in the first day than I had in several years of trial and error. He learned in a die shop that made dies for the silver industry. The old ways hung around alot longer in mexico. He did ask why I didnt have an edm and a cnc machine. He knew how to run those and told me I needed to get with the times. I chased every living die maker I could find in the US but got pretty much nowhere. The work was so specialized here in the US that no one had a whole picture of how everything worked. We did everything from the model to the master tool steel hub. I almost went to mexico to work in his shop but he said it would be better for him to show me on my equipment. Thought I would share this here since I cant think of too many people who would find this interesting.

It's funny to hear the specialist saying "get with the times"...but the reality is that in these dies, technology is just now to the point that it can replace the duplicating lathe. The duplicating lathe is an analog system, whereby the smallest defect or detail on a master that is 5x as big is duplicated in miniature. When you look at the size engraving tip used, you get a better sense of just how small that actually is. This isn't detail is easily reproduced. The US Mint is just now, in the last ten years, starting to do away with the duplicating lathe with Renata Gordon's work. She's their first "mostly" digital scupltor. Even she still does a little clay sculpting prior to laser scanning.

Now, will a Haas do it, with acceptable quality...yes. It'll reproduce it as good as you can draw it. BUT...it still won't have the same organic elegant feel of the old masters.

It's like you said, the knowledge was either dead, or proprietary. I'm glad you found one of the living masters who would talk!!

I picked up those 10" cylinders from HGR. They are beautiful. Make my 5x5 weldsale cast iron table look tiny.

D Dubeau · Sep 14, 2017

Cool story. I bet the old boy was just as happy about sharing the knowledge as you were about gaining it.

I'd like to fly him up here so he can talk some sense into some of the old boys I work with about the virtues of CNC. It's 2017 and they still think CNC is only for ball cutting or "kellering".....

gwilson · Sep 14, 2017

Do you mean dies like this one? I hand chisel them with die sinker chisels that I also make.

It takes a long time to make a hand cut die,so they might be too expensive.

snowman · Sep 14, 2017

similar...but he is doing hobs. A little higher relief than bas relief, but not much. Hand carve the original, then forge a hob. The sheet silver/gold/copper/brass is then pressed in to the hob to create work that is very similar to repousse, just without pitch, and millions of years of practice.

I have been searching the whole world for jewelry die makers.

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