I just became a Tree Hugger - Tree 2UVR-C

Hey everyone, first post here on PM. I am a newbie to the machining world, and current student learning the trade...geared to the CNC side of things.

First mill I used was a Lagun FTV-1, and a couple of Bridgeports, then I got to use my buddies old Tree 2UVR with the "Z" collet quick change system and X-axis powerfeed.
So, after much reading, and reading, and re-reading, I found on Craigslist a Tree 2UVRC - Journeyman / Tradesman 200 that had some old NC electronics and servos / motors on it. It was part of a giant lot of gear to sell from a welding shop. I asked the guy if they would let it go separately, and they said sure. I asked how much, and they said $600. Yeah....$600.
I went down to the shop which is only 5 miles away to check it out. It has the body of a 2UVR-C all right, big box ways. No power feeds at all unfortunately (I guess that was redundant with the servos). The "kid" who works at the family (I assume) run shop and was handling liquidating their equipment said he had never seen it turned on in the 12 years he'd been there; it just sat in the back of the shop taking up room and were eager to get rid of it. I asked them to put power to it, and after some fiddling with the enclosure door lock / switch, she turned on. One of the other employees said that no one knew how to turn it on, and it was the first time it has been on as far as he knew. The NC control seems to be shot, no response to any button mashing, but the forward and reverse buttons fired up the motor and the stop worked as well.
Ahhhh, she purrs like a kitten. No grinding, clunking, nada...just smooth.

The table fed back and forth on the X-Axis very nicely without any issue.

I tested the spindle for any run-out...I couldn't find any. The quick change collet system worked fine, and they even had 8 collets. Checked backlash on the X-axis, there is maybe 1-2 Thou tops.

On the negative side, the motor brake doesn't work (I'm thinking the cork is just worn away).

The Y-Axis is almost impossible to move. It does move, but it is SUPER hard. I'm not sure if the servo motor was fighting me, or it was bound up from sitting for 18 years not being used.
The electronics (at least the NC part, there was no tape reader available) I am figuring are junk. I could hear different relays clicking when manipulating some of the major controls such as Auto/manual and Reset. The digital led's were flickering on and off on the X axis, and all of the mode lights were lit up.
There is no X or Y table locks due to the machine being NC I assume.
No power feeds at all.

So, I am going to use it in a manual fashion until I get some more coin together and will Linux CNC the beast. Not sure if I want to get a DRO just yet...although it would be really nice and a hell of a lot quicker than using dials. I am on a budget though.

What I am looking for is does anyone have any input or advice upgrading this mill to a newer CNC system? I want to go full 3-Axis, LinuxCNC / Mach3 etc. in time.

I have been looking at AjaxCNC w/Centroid, but it seems somewhat pricey.

If anyone has experience with this mill or converting / upgrading old Tree NC tech, I would be indebted to you.

P.S. Does anyone know if AdobeMachine is around? He has a very similar setup and I need to pick his brain.

Centroid is expensive, but it is worth every penny. I have a V2xt Bridgeport with a Centroid M400 on it. Its great, easy to program and dead reliable.

How much were you in on the Centroid? did you have to do all servos, etc.?

KC130Loadie said:

The Y-Axis is almost impossible to move. It does move, but it is SUPER hard. I'm not sure if the servo motor was fighting me, or it was bound up from sitting for 18 years not being used.

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If you have power shut off and it still fights you, its a problem with the ways or screw. If its easy to move with the power off it was the servo.

So, I am going to use it in a manual fashion until I get some more coin together and will Linux CNC the beast. Not sure if I want to get a DRO just yet...although it would be really nice and a hell of a lot quicker than using dials. I am on a budget though.

Click to expand...

If you're going to upgrade the controls long term, a DRO is probably a waste of money - provided of course that you provide full closed loop feedback to the control computer (Most people running Mach3 don't do this, they just let Mach3 shoot step/dir signals to the servo drives). If your screws are in good shape and you have closed loop feedback a DRO is essentially redundant. If you don't have closed loop you only find out that you lost steps when your parts are out of tolerance :-(

What I am looking for is does anyone have any input or advice upgrading this mill to a newer CNC system? I want to go full 3-Axis, LinuxCNC / Mach3 etc. in time.
If anyone has experience with this mill or converting / upgrading old Tree NC tech, I would be indebted to you.

Click to expand...

I don't have specific advise regarding that mill, just some nuggets from upgrading a 1979 Lagun that was originally Bandit controlled -

Find out right away if you have encoders or resolvers. Most modern servo drives will interface with encoders, resolvers require an (expensive) converter box or (more expensive) servo drives to interface.

In my case I found that selling off the resolvers to someone who needed to get a dead machine running ASAP helped finance the way to a newer motor/encoder combination.

I have good things to say about Mesa electronics in conjunction with LinuxCNC. My machine is currently running 3 axis (soon to be 4 with a rotab) servos thru a Mesa 5i20 FPGA, 7i29 DC servo controllers, a 7i37TA IO board and a SPINX1 VFD interface. LinuxCNC tells it what to do on an intel Atom 1.8 Mobo. I have an MPG from CNC4PC going to a parallel port mini-PCIe expansion card, spindle is driven thru a used A-B 1305 VFD, power supply for the drives is a homebuilt unit with a rewound toroidal transformer from Antek. All told I have <$3000 into the build, including the base machine and an automatic oiler for the ways. Speaking of, go thru your oiling system. You will not regret the decision to blow <$50 on some new copper line and bijur orifices, but you will regret the decision to forego that expense and wreck a screw or chew up half a way when you discover that a 30 year old orifice has plugged up with oxidized oil.

The support from the linuxCNC community on their forums is great, though I wish that the forums themselves were a little less buggy.

I haven't updated it in a long time but I put some of my observations, build log and struggles on my website In Rust I Trust

My Centroid conversion replaced all electrical parts on my mill except the spindle motor and the limit switches. I got the big cabinet full of goodies that hangs on the side of the mill, the flat screed monitor, cabinet, with controls and key board and the arm to hold it all. I got the pendent controls and tool setter, The unlimited part program option, 3 axis control, 2 USB ports, servo motors and I don't remember what all else. I did the installation, a tech came out to get it up and running and do some training. The whole deal was about 14,000. In a way not worth it, but the iron was in as new condition, and was scrap without a control. At the time a new cnc knee mill from msc was around 28,000 so I got a new machine with a better control for half price. The Centroid has been trouble free for 5 years now and the original boss control broke down about once a month and cost thousands to keep running. It drove me nuts, I would hold my breath every time I started it, was it going to boot up or be fucked up. The last straw was it died half way through a mold job right after i had just spent 1200.00 on it. EMI was getting rich off me and I had about had enough of it. You need to post your location, If you are between Ohio and the east coast I can hook you up with the tech I used, I highly recommend him.

--greenbuggy

For the Y-Axis, yeah...something buggered up with the screw or ways seemed more likely. You could definitely tell that the machine has just been sitting forever. There is a TON of old grease and oil and dust on the knee. A tear down and inspection of the lower end was pretty much a given just due to the fact it sat. I cleaned off a big swath of goo off the knee, and the scraping looked pretty good still. Looks like I'll be getting out the engine hoist and a box of brake cleaner.
Speaking of cleaning out all the goo and crud, is using brake cleaner and a box of shop rags an acceptable method? Seeing that the machine wasn't even turned on for 12 years leads me to think that there is all kinds of nasty in the lower end.

As for the servos, I am pretty sure they will have resolvers.
For the semi-short term, I am leaning to just using the mill in manual mode and will go ahead and DRO it. I can at least be making chips sooner, and can take some more time to fully research everything before plunking down chunks of money. I really hate it that I like expensive hobbies and pursuits.

The power supply side of the cabinet looked to be in really good shape. Nice and clean, and no noticable traces of a visit from the smoke genie. Only Mr. Multimeter and O-Scope will tell for sure though.

I do find it funny that DRO's cost so much. I could understand if this was the 60's and 70's, but I just don't get how 2-3 electronic measuring devices and a glorified calculator cost so much. I like to open ocean fish, and I can buy a commercial quality depth finder with dual transducers for a 1/3 of the cost of some of the DROs out there. Kinda apples and oranges, but bouncing sound waves off the ocean floor and other things and then translating that into a graphical representation all based on the time differential of the sound pulses seems just as complicated as an optical reader measuring a scale then displaying big led numbers.

It seems from all of the forums and thread I've been reading that there are pretty devoted crowds to both the LinuxCNC and Mach3. I definitely dig the lower system requirements for the Linux PC, and I have lots of experience playing in the command line. Not being beholden to one company's' products is a plus for me.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

--moonlight machine

Did you go with AjaxCNC? or directly from Centroid? Looks like you did go with all the bells and whistles. I do like their setup (from what I've researched) in that you can kind-of add stuff on as you go. I'm a semi-starving veteran going back to school on the G.I. Bill, so I have to watch how much funds I blow at any one time.
I'm in San Diego, CA...but am lucky in that there are still remnants of the aviation industry here and there, and quite a bit of local know-how when it comes to this stuff. I'm also lucky in that I had almost 7 years building Linux clusters, so my hoard of old server grade computer parts looks like it will finally pay off.

KC130Loadie said:

--greenbuggy

For the Y-Axis, yeah...something buggered up with the screw or ways seemed more likely. You could definitely tell that the machine has just been sitting forever. There is a TON of old grease and oil and dust on the knee. A tear down and inspection of the lower end was pretty much a given just due to the fact it sat. I cleaned off a big swath of goo off the knee, and the scraping looked pretty good still. Looks like I'll be getting out the engine hoist and a box of brake cleaner.

Click to expand...

Not sure if you can get it in the PRC but B12 Chemtool carb & choke cleaner cuts thru years of oxidized nastiness better than anything else I've found. Warning: it can and will peel paint and powdercoat

Speaking of cleaning out all the goo and crud, is using brake cleaner and a box of shop rags an acceptable method? Seeing that the machine wasn't even turned on for 12 years leads me to think that there is all kinds of nasty in the lower end.

Click to expand...

Does the machine have a coolant sump in the bottom of the base? My Lagun did, I ended up blocking it up, drilling a hole in a low spot that I later plugged with a marine expandable rubber plug, and pressure washing the hell out of it, beat wrecking my back leaning thru a tiny access hole at the limits of my arms length.

The power supply side of the cabinet looked to be in really good shape. Nice and clean, and no noticable traces of a visit from the smoke genie. Only Mr. Multimeter and O-Scope will tell for sure though.

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May be worthwhile to replace the electrolytics (capacitors). Everything else is probably overbuilt enough to be good for another 30 years.

For some reason B12 Chemtool is still allowed out here...for now. That stuff is amazing.
Come to think of a sump...I'm not sure. There is so much dirt and goo that I never noticed a screen or anything. The table does have a drain with the remnant of a hose on the backside..so I guess that is a possibility. I'm going have to start with a heavy duty paint scraper to find out.

100% agree on the caps. Hell, I've had to re-cap televisions and monitors that weren't even 5 years old, bout in 2009. As for overbuilt, the transformers in this thing are pretty damn big.

Before putting too much into it check the spindle backlash on the spline. the spindle shaft has 4 driving flats and 4 rollers that can be adjusted. Spindle runout can be affected by misadjusting. On mine ( same spindle but manual machine) the rollers had worn divots into the shaft in a few spots. I could feel it when moving the quill. An upgrade was squares that distributed the load better.
Also one of the cam pins in mine was broke. I don't know if it was that way when I bought it. I wasn't in as good of shape as I thought.

I'm not sure where to get parts now, it was 3S.

Dave

winger said:

Before putting too much into it check the spindle backlash on the spline. the spindle shaft has 4 driving flats and 4 rollers that can be adjusted. Spindle runout can be affected by misadjusting. On mine ( same spindle but manual machine) the rollers had worn divots into the shaft in a few spots. I could feel it when moving the quill. An upgrade was squares that distributed the load better.
Also one of the cam pins in mine was broke. I don't know if it was that way when I bought it. I wasn't in as good of shape as I thought.

I'm not sure where to get parts now, it was 3S.

Dave

Click to expand...

I'll have to take a look when it is time to tear down the head. I changed tools in and out a bunch of times, and checked for run-out, and all seemed good. I have the parts diagram pulled up, looking at an axial profile view looking "up" into the spindle, I see the 4 Driver Rollers you are talking about. Do you adjust these by removing the collet closer sleeve? I am assuming that the four rollers push against the flats, and you need to get all four dialed to remove run-out?
As for Cam pins, I see Eccentric Pins, it looks like they are what locate and capture the Driver Rollers.

I remember seeing somewhere on some thread the issue of the divots being worn into the shaft. Was that cause by the rollers wearing or not being adjusted, then letting the shaft float and get wacked? Did the 4 square upgrade just improve the amount of surface in contact?

Thanks for the heads-up. This site and it's members are awesome with the hard won info so freely given! Thank You guys!

I got the Centroid with all the bells and whistles. I got it the end of the summer in the last year of Bush. business was awesome that year and I had lots to spend. All the rich guys stopped spending money on their race cars when o took over. I'd like to convert my Tree Journeyman 325 from Dynapath to Centroid but the last 6 years money has been tight, though this summer has been good. Mabe next summer. Want a complete Dynapath Delta 20 control? If I could get enough I might be able to get another Centroid control

That thing looks just like mine. I have not decided to do anything with it yet because I can't bring myself to invest in a 2 axis machine. I saw a guy on youtube put a ballscrew and counter balances on his knee to make it the 3rd axis and that seems to be more work than I am willing to put into it.

--moonlight machine
I hear ya on all the race cars going away. Here in SoCal, going to the desert and riding and offroading is huge during the winter. Once everything imploded, guys who looked rich as all get out with every toy under the sun sticking out their toy haulers were watching the repo men just take the entire toy hauler away with all the toys. Thanks for the Dynapath offer...and nothing against it...but if I wanted to mess with the old tech, I would have gone for a Tree Journeyman 325 or something like it. There is actually one on Ebay right now for $500 just north of me. Nothing beats my (bad) timing. More likely than not, for the short term, the mill is going to get a revamped manual treatment, a DRO (maybe an open-DRO from Shumatech), some table locks added, and depending on this eBay auction for a 10 hp 3-phase motor for a phase converter, a VFD that can be controlled later when I CNC it. In the mean time as a manual mill, I can slowly build up the cash and parts needed to go full-bore. The Centroid system definitely looks to be the best "drop in and go" system I've seen. The software appears to be a much more "professional" product than the Mach3, at least to my newbie eyes. I'll have to see if my servos still work. If they do, I'll fab up a basic controller to jog the table to act as a feed via changing the voltage to the servos.

--macgyver
3s got bought by another company who is supporting Tree spindles and what not. If you search for Tree and 3s, it will take you to th

Yeah...it would have been nice to find one of these with the knee already done with the ball screw. I am going to try to do a "light" teardown as I want to get to making chips sooner than later. I have some projects that are going to make me some cash, so the sooner I can get those done, the faster I can put some more TLC into the machine.

You wouldn't have any documentation on your would you? I can figure out wiring pretty easily, but it would be nice to have an official map of what everything was setup as.

I have a manual for mine, I do not remember if it has the wiring schematic or not, I will have to look. I am guessing my machine is a 1978 model, I think based on the paint scheme on yours it is very close but older, do you know what year yours is?

I figured I would use mine as a manual as well until I came up with a better plan. My machine is wired 440v, so I didn't do anything with it for quite awhile until I got a transformer and hooked it up. It powers up, but I can't get it to home out. I think it is missing a limit switch on the y axis, I'd like to see what you have on yours on the left side of the knee under the table. It looks like a bracket used to be there, but there is just one broken off bolt and no bracketry.

The Tree programming seems like it is about as simple as it can get, it doesn't seem to use g code, just their own code, maybe it does if it is in a different mode. I honestly don't know, the manual is vague like all of them are and I do not know anyone that has one running to ask what it is supposed to do.

Recently I had the thought of pulling the head off and putting a 18k router spindle with a set of thk rails and servo for a powered Z and using it as a little pattern mill. Have not made it any farther than the idea.

I had read about the upgrade and made my own from ampco bronze. Made new eccentric pins from dowel pins.

There is a plug in front(about 1/2"dia) to remove for access to the cams. when the spindle is at the right height you will be able to see the small SHCS on the clamps. Loosen these and rotate the spindle to get to the cam pins. Also an allen wrench.
Spindle removal is necessary to replace the rollers.
There is a little tab screwed to the spindle that is the depth stop. I don't remember if there is access through the hole.
I had to remove the spindle out the top.

My fix is far from perfect but that and the rest of the fixes I've had to do, get the job done.

I think it was better than the Bridgeports I use at work when it was new. Now it's a 40 year old machine that has been run.

Dave

macgyver said:

I have a manual for mine, I do not remember if it has the wiring schematic or not, I will have to look. I am guessing my machine is a 1978 model, I think based on the paint scheme on yours it is very close but older, do you know what year yours is?

I figured I would use mine as a manual as well until I came up with a better plan. My machine is wired 440v, so I didn't do anything with it for quite awhile until I got a transformer and hooked it up. It powers up, but I can't get it to home out. I think it is missing a limit switch on the y axis, I'd like to see what you have on yours on the left side of the knee under the table. It looks like a bracket used to be there, but there is just one broken off bolt and no bracketry.

The Tree programming seems like it is about as simple as it can get, it doesn't seem to use g code, just their own code, maybe it does if it is in a different mode. I honestly don't know, the manual is vague like all of them are and I do not know anyone that has one running to ask what it is supposed to do.

Recently I had the thought of pulling the head off and putting a 18k router spindle with a set of thk rails and servo for a powered Z and using it as a little pattern mill. Have not made it any farther than the idea.

Click to expand...

If there is any way you could possibly send a scan of the electrical diagram, that would rock. Does yours say Journeyman 200 R or 200 U?
You got the snazzy retro future Racing Stripe and Smooth contoured ram option. It looks like something that would be in the old bowling alley arcade made by Brunswick nearby me before it was torn down. Mine is just ugly.


Isn't changing to 220v just a matter of a couple of wires?


As for limit switches, all of mine are on the right side as far as I can tell.



This one is on eBay right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tree-Journe...624?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484c571490

Here's a bunch more pics. I really don't have anything except the knee lock on the left.

http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/KC130Loadie/slideshow/Tree%202UVR-C%20Before%20comming%20home

winger said:

I had read about the upgrade and made my own from ampco bronze. Made new eccentric pins from dowel pins.

There is a plug in front(about 1/2"dia) to remove for access to the cams. when the spindle is at the right height you will be able to see the small SHCS on the clamps. Loosen these and rotate the spindle to get to the cam pins. Also an allen wrench.
Spindle removal is necessary to replace the rollers.
There is a little tab screwed to the spindle that is the depth stop. I don't remember if there is access through the hole.
I had to remove the spindle out the top.

My fix is far from perfect but that and the rest of the fixes I've had to do, get the job done.

I think it was better than the Bridgeports I use at work when it was new. Now it's a 40 year old machine that has been run.

Dave

Click to expand...

Looks like I "should" pull the head apart and check before I damage anything. When you ran the machine, what signs and signals let you know something wasn't right. I beleive you said that you could feel it when manually moving the quill. I probably only ran the machine for maybe 15-20 minutes, and it sounded and felt quieter than my buddy's which gets used all the time. It could be because the machine hadn't even been turned on in 15+ years.

What do you think, tear the head down for some PM before things go south?

--Kit

P.s. - The forum looks like it is cutting out portions of the postings. I dunno.

I completely forgot to look at my manual today, I will make a note to do it tomorrow.

I will also have to take some pics of it and take a good look at it again, it has been quite awhile since i messed with it.

If I recall the control components are wired 440, and I wasn't seeing an easy way to change it. The spindle motor would be easy to swap the wires on, but the rest didn't look like it.

macgyver said:

I completely forgot to look at my manual today, I will make a note to do it tomorrow.

I will also have to take some pics of it and take a good look at it again, it has been quite awhile since i messed with it.

If I recall the control components are wired 440, and I wasn't seeing an easy way to change it. The spindle motor would be easy to swap the wires on, but the rest didn't look like it.

Click to expand...

No prob, I am "picking up" the machine this Saturday. It's nice when you have friends and neighbors with heavy equipment and the trailers to haul it with. A "local" company wanted over $1,000 to move the mill 11 miles. It was pretty much $100 a mile. No thanks, not when I already have the know how in moving and SAFELY securing heavy stuff.

I have been going back and forth on what to do for 3-phase, and since the majority of the computer guts were going to get the heave-ho, I decided to go with a VFD. I am going to rewire the pendant buttons to the VFD for spindle control while it remains a manual mill. I figure if the servos are any good and worth the trouble adapting to new controls, I'll keep the majority of the power supplys, inverters, transformers, etc. For the short term, I'll probably disconnect the majority of it all, rewire the pendant controls along with the motor and call it good until I can figure out how to 1. Finally decide on which system I want to go with in the end and, 2. Figure out how to raise the cash needed to collect all the CNC gear. The Centroid stuff looks SOOOOO nice ...but damn...my truck and car don't cost that much.

Can anyone answer why DRO's cost so much? I don't get it.

So, today I was just prepping and cleaning the mill at the previous owners' shop before I move it Saturday. Figured might as well make a mess there rather than my garage. I made sure the ram actually locked (saw another thread on here where the ram wasn't actually captured and slid off during transport), got to do an even more in-depth check of the mill, and found out why the Y-Axis was SOO hard to move; the damn gib was tightened up to all the way. After loosening that...everything moved smooth as silk. I worked the head tilt back and forth with lots of PB blaster, then remembered to drain the oil out of the head BEFORE I inverted it. I did take apart the Y-axis drive plate, and was surprised at how much dang grease was in it. I also noticed that the encoder? looked to be wearing a nice ring into the cover. How did this start happening? Oh, I broke off the limit switch bracket, I barely wiggled it and POP went the metal. Looks like I'll be making a new one.

Does anyone know what the little brown breakout circuit board that is attached to the mainboard does?