I want to start a small shop, but need advice!

Hello everyone. This will be my first post after much info gathering and reading some of the vast amounts of wisdom that all of you folks have to share.
First a little background on me so that you guys have somewhere to start if you are able to help me.
I'm 22, I live in Western NC, I graduated from my local community college with my AA and a 2 year welding degree. I currently work for a company that does military and gov contracts for blast defense and blast protection. I do welding there and have in the last 6 months been moved from welding over to helping with machining. We run a Haas VF-3 and I have fallen in love with the whole process. My experience with machining to date it just running pre-written programs and doing a little setup/probing with the VF-3. I want to start my own shop and eventually move into working for myself full time. I have a lot of experience working on airsoft guns and from that i want to create innovative products for consumers in that market. I have several ideas that i know would sell after talking to several distributors in my area.

What I would like advice on is this:
What machine to buy? (I am most familiar with Haas, and yes i know it is a very open ended question)
What CAD to buy? I currently have Fusion 360
What lathe to buy?
What compressor to buy?
What saw to buy?
Worth it for 4th or 5th axis?
Is it better to buy an older used machine and pay cash up front that is cheaper, or buy a better newer/new machine with more capabilities and make payments?
My budget is 50k to 100k, but the less I have to spend and still get good quality the better.
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Better off to buy yourself a hot dog cart. It was going to be said sooner or later...

Not that my opinion really matters because I dont own a shop, but I have seen several of similar threads so here is goes:


What machine to buy? What ever you can afford and gets the job done
What CAD to buy? Stick with 360
What lathe to buy? Depends on what you need it to do
What compressor to buy? Depends on the requirements of equipment and anticipated future growth
What saw to buy? depends on stock size, type, needs
Worth it for 4th or 5th axis? only if your parts require it
Is it better to buy an older used machine and pay cash up front that is cheaper, or buy a better newer/new machine with more capabilities and make payments? buy used in cash. new businesses struggle to make payments with unproven product

My 2 cents for how to do it on the cheap, while still having reasonable
capability.


What machine to buy?

Mid to late 90's Fadal, almost free at this point, dirt cheap parts from many
sources, tons of support out there, not the fastest, not the greatest, but
for what they do, and how cheap and easy they are to keep running, they are
a bargain, and there is a ton of them out there.



What CAD to buy? you already have it and know how to use it.

What lathe to buy? A mid 90's Mazak lathe, QT20 or so. Rock solid reliable, MAZATROL
and they are coming way down in price.


What compressor to buy? Cheapest thing that will make air, I've been futzing along
for quite some time on a $169 HF compressor running 2-3VMCs and a turning center.

What saw to buy? Cheap.. I suggest a 7x11 cheapie to get you going. Cheap
and moderately portable and will cut just about anything you need if you buy good blades.
Good for resale, they seem to bottom at $400 for even the most thrashed POS. Also a handy
little guy to have around for the small stuff/one-off quickies when/if you do upgrade saws.

Worth it for 4th or 5th axis? If you look at Fadals a reasonable amount of them come
with a 4th, and the 4th doesn't really add a lot to the sale price.. Trying to add a 4th
will cost you almost as much as a whole machine.. Not *necessary*, but when you NEED IT, you
NEED IT, I would say right now you don't NEED it.


Don't go digging yourself a big hole with big payments. Payments suck... You can always
add or upgrade in the future if you need to.

My advice?
You're 22 and have a 50k-100k budget.
I wish I had that when I was your age (47 now).
Keep doing whatever it is you're doing to save that amount of money and you'll retire in no time at all.

Bobw said:

My 2 cents for how to do it on the cheap, while still having reasonable
capability.


What machine to buy?

Mid to late 90's Fadal, almost free at this point, dirt cheap parts from many
sources, tons of support out there, not the fastest, not the greatest, but
for what they do, and how cheap and easy they are to keep running, they are
a bargain, and there is a ton of them out there.



What CAD to buy? you already have it and know how to use it.

What lathe to buy? A mid 90's Mazak lathe, QT20 or so. Rock solid reliable, MAZATROL
and they are coming way down in price.


What compressor to buy? Cheapest thing that will make air, I've been futzing along
for quite some time on a $169 HF compressor running 2-3VMCs and a turning center.

What saw to buy? Cheap.. I suggest a 7x11 cheapie to get you going. Cheap
and moderately portable and will cut just about anything you need if you buy good blades.
Good for resale, they seem to bottom at $400 for even the most thrashed POS. Also a handy
little guy to have around for the small stuff/one-off quickies when/if you do upgrade saws.

Worth it for 4th or 5th axis? If you look at Fadals a reasonable amount of them come
with a 4th, and the 4th doesn't really add a lot to the sale price.. Trying to add a 4th
will cost you almost as much as a whole machine.. Not *necessary*, but when you NEED IT, you
NEED IT, I would say right now you don't NEED it.


Don't go digging yourself a big hole with big payments. Payments suck... You can always
add or upgrade in the future if you need to.

Click to expand...

Although I'm not CNC, Bob and I have trodden similar paths, and my advice is ;- listen to the man he talks a lot of sense.

Don't forget tooling up machines eats $$$ faster than the machines themselves.

Q ;- how much of your budget is hard cash in your possession and you are not borrowing from anywhere?

QT mtndew [ Keep doing whatever it is you're doing }

Most likely racking up hours in a defense shop is better than trying to start a shop on your free time...Most likely 50% of your start-up time will be knocking on doors.. Job shops are hard to start so perhaps stay for a time..Seems like you are still green. Now you are getting paid to learn and practice.. You should be at least able to write your own programs..

Get your own study books and study programming on any free time. Pay attention to production rates, learn tooling and fixturing..

What machine to buy? Since you already are familiar with Haas and are looking to be making parts for the airsoft industry, I would suggest a Haas mini mill. I personally don't like Fadal's because I'm impatient and they're slow as hell.
What CAD to buy? I currently have Fusion 360 You have it. Starting off, you can't beat the price of Fusion.
What lathe to buy? Are you wanting manual or CNC? Live tooling? Y axis?
What compressor to buy? A 5hp splash lube should be fine. https://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Quincy-2V41C60VC-Air-Compressor/p855.html
Worth it for 4th or 5th axis? If you can find one already with the machine then yes. If you're at the point where this is critical it may be worth investing in a better machine. You can always get by with a spindexer in the mean time.

Philabuster said:

Better off to buy yourself a hot dog cart. It was going to be said sooner or later...

Click to expand...

You beat me to it. Curse you.

Don't quit your job!
First rent a small building with plenty of power, start buying machines, work every night and weekends, look for customers and if/when you have so much work you have to quit - then you're ready.
That's what I did and fortunately it worked.

GearHacker said:

Hello everyone. This will be my first post after much info gathering and reading some of the vast amounts of wisdom that all of you folks have to share.
First a little background on me so that you guys have somewhere to start if you are able to help me.
I'm 22, I live in Western NC, I graduated from my local community college with my AA and a 2 year welding degree. I currently work for a company that does military and gov contracts for blast defense and blast protection. I do welding there and have in the last 6 months been moved from welding over to helping with machining. We run a Haas VF-3 and I have fallen in love with the whole process. My experience with machining to date it just running pre-written programs and doing a little setup/probing with the VF-3. I want to start my own shop and eventually move into working for myself full time. I have a lot of experience working on airsoft guns and from that i want to create innovative products for consumers in that market. I have several ideas that i know would sell after talking to several distributors in my area.

What I would like advice on is this:
What machine to buy? (I am most familiar with Haas, and yes i know it is a very open ended question)
What CAD to buy? I currently have Fusion 360
What lathe to buy?
What compressor to buy?
What saw to buy?
Worth it for 4th or 5th axis?
Is it better to buy an older used machine and pay cash up front that is cheaper, or buy a better newer/new machine with more capabilities and make payments?
My budget is 50k to 100k, but the less I have to spend and still get good quality the better.
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Click to expand...

.
you need a business plan first
.
1) what customers are ready and willing to do business with you ? nothing to do with what you can do
.
2) where are your customers ? and location of business suitable ?
.
3) what equipment will you need to buy, lease, rent and total cost including taxes to maintain it ?
.
personally i think starting a business is a good way to have all your time and money go down a bottomless hole. my father bought a restaurant and in 6 months sold only one glass of milk. just saying even if you have a business why would anybody do business with you ?? much of business is who you know or having connections to former college buddies, etc
.....you can have equipment and the ability but WHY would anybody do business with you and are they likely to do business with you ?? both very important to know answers before investing money and time

Nowhere near enough experiance. And if you go the job shop route too much competition.

First at your current job..learn to write the program of the item you seek to make.(no not when on the clock) .choose the tooling needed..figure the machine time and cost..planning starting in your garage.. or in a rented shop?
If selling on EBAY the profit fairly easy to figure but sales numbers not that great..selling at retail store figure half the profit going to the seller..

Just saying you need to be a machinist to do a fair job of starting a machine shop. It could take a year or more to become a good machinist.. What?

Well in the money you could buy everything and hire experienced guys and in a week make a year's production of parts..So that also figure how large the market for your item.

Starting out hire out the parts cutting and the like.. buy good equipment for last operation, then second to last and work your way into doing the whole part...yes the selling price has to be able to pay for the operations if you expect to profit when you have it all.

GearHacker said:

Hello everyone. This will be my first post after much info gathering and reading some of the vast amounts of wisdom that all of you folks have to share....

Click to expand...

Welcome. This is a great place to learn, no matter how long you've been at it. Your question seems sincere, and I'll share with you the best advice I can give.

GearHacker said:

...We run a Haas VF-3 and I have fallen in love with the whole process. My experience with machining to date it just running pre-written programs and doing a little setup/probing with the VF-3. I want to start my own shop and eventually move into working for myself full time...

Click to expand...

1) Clearly the machining bug has bit you. That's great. If you truly love machining, stay at your job and keep machining. What you're talking about, opening your own machine shop; is more of a paradox than you may think right now. Many here will tell you that you have to pick one; dive into being the best machinist you can be, or dive into being the best businessman you can be. Those are two hats that very very few people can wear at the same time. To excel at either almost always requires 100% of your effort.

GearHacker said:

...I have a lot of experience working on airsoft guns and from that i want to create innovative products for consumers in that market. I have several ideas that i know would sell after talking to several distributors in my area...

Click to expand...

2) If you just cannot hold back from striking out on your own, at least plan on specializing. Preferably build your business plan around some product / widget that has the following features: A) it's not easily copied, B) has an existing market, & C) generates repeat sales to returning customers (no one-offs, art, custom work, etc.).

GearHacker said:

What I would like advice on is this:
What machine to buy?...

Click to expand...

3) Come up with half a dozen design ideas that fit the requirements above, and only then move on to deciding what machines you might need.

GearHacker said:

My budget is 50k to 100k, but the less I have to spend and still get good quality the better.
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Click to expand...

4) No matter what your budget, don't get in over your head. If you buy, only buy what you know you need to do the job. Get in too deep and you'll go from loving machining to hating every minute of it. It's great to see people get excited about machining. But for many people, the fastest way to hate something they once loved is to turn it into a business. Some can pull it off, but there's nothing wrong with just focusing on learning the trade as an employee while leaving the business pains to others.

DMF_TomB said:

.
you need a business plan first
.
1) what customers are ready and willing to do business with you ? nothing to do with what you can do
.
2) where are your customers ? and location of business suitable ?
.
3) what equipment will you need to buy, lease, rent and total cost including taxes to maintain it ?
.
personally i think starting a business is a good way to have all your time and money go down a bottomless hole. my father bought a restaurant and in 6 months sold only one glass of milk. just saying even if you have a business why would anybody do business with you ?? much of business is who you know or having connections to former college buddies, etc
.....you can have equipment and the ability but WHY would anybody do business with you and are they likely to do business with you ?? both very important to know answers before investing money and time

Click to expand...

This. Find the money before you find the machines. If you don't know what you want to make, you can't know what kind of machines you need.

Pretty opened ended statement there, I know - but competition is beyond fierce. If you want to survive, find a niche and become an expert. You don't want to compete against every Tom, Dick and Mary that got a VMC, bandsaw, and rotary phase converter hooked up in their garage, making a go at slamming out parts for 10% above cost. What 'ya wanna do, is become an expert in hard turning 60+ HRc steel with PCD and CBN inserts - or stupid tight tolerance 5 axis rubber parts. Or microwelding H13 injection molds. Or be the only person in the country that can machine a block of cheddar cheese to 25 microns with flatness and perpendicularity tolerances so tight you need to breed the cow special for the task.

Then you're competing against a handful of people total. More likely swapping work because you're all too busy to handle it.

Even the big, successful general job shops found a niche - but their niche is ridiculously throughput and efficiency. You don't want to be bidding jobs against the shop that just installed 4 robotic arms to make unloading the tombstones on their horizontal mills and feeding more 20ft sticks of material into their bank of Mori Seki bar feeder lathes less labor intensive. That's not a game you'll win with a VF3 and a dream.

Ask me how I know...

A guy once told me...sometimes it's better to be the prince and play with the king's toys.

plastikdreams said:

A guy once told me...sometimes it's better to be the prince and play with the king's toys.

Click to expand...

Certainly he wasn't a king...

No but it's sound advice lol

After thinking about what was written in another thread about having trouble with getting the employees in a small business to improve productivity, I thought, "why not tackle this motivation issue right at the beginning, in the business planning part"?

So you lay out a string of figures designed to impress some banker to lend you $200k. Can you also lay out a series of arguments enough to get some prospective employees to bite? I'm talking ground floor, these employees will know from the outset that it is a team effort to get the plan off the ground, they will be motivated to participate in their own success.

Let's have no more of this "I am a successful business (employer), would you (employee) like to come along on my ride?" That gets some people (the ones you can do without) looking at you, sizing you up for how fat your bank account must be already, and how little do they have to do to latch onto that tempting teat.

If you can't imagine how you would lay out this prospectus to a hypothetical group of employees, maybe you really have no plan at all and should consider that. Then you can honestly say that you want machines to enable a new hobby, that's about it. Nobody quits their job because they have a hobby. But if perchance the hobby takes off later on and becomes a viable money making concern, then you quit your job.

how much room do you have? square feet? and what is ceiling height and size of access door? is the floor solid? Do you have plenty of power available from utility, what kind of power?