Keyed or Keyless chucks

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

Hi folk ... would welcome your comments on the above subject please.

I've had (and have) second-hand Albrecht keyless chucks via eBay and Jacob's keyed chucks too but ... I'd like to spend good money on a NEW chuck or two! as I think mine have a poor run out.

If you had to buy new chucks which would you buy and why?

The right chuck on an 2MT or 3MT arbor would suit both the tailstock of my Hardinge or ... the quill of my Meddings drill (and yes I would buy two, one for each).

Thanks in anticipation

John :typing:

Marty Feldman · Jul 18, 2016

How much runout is "poor" runout, and measured under what conditions?

I stay away from modern-day Jacobs chucks. No issues with older, original Jacobs chucks.

As time goes on, I find myself preferring keyed as opposed to keyless chucks, although under some production-run circumstances the speed of drill changes with keyless chucks has to be important. In all fairness, I have to say that my preference for keyed chucks is largely due to two similar experiences, one with a Jacobs keyless and one with an Albrecht keyless chuck, that were my fault. In trying to save time when mounting a large diameter drill, rather than switching to a larger chuck I rapidly spun the chuck open to its absolute maximum bore diameter, following which the chuck jaws locked up in the wide open position. The penalty in each case was much aggravation and lost time.

I have to say, though, that one of the small drill chucks used in my lathe tailstock is an older Albrecht keyless that has performed flawlessly for years. I think of it as important to slow up a bit and go carefully if opening it up to near its largest bore, and to stop short of maximum.

One final random thought: if you get a good chuck which is not mounted, do not scrimp on arbor quality.

-Marty-

Johnny Larue · Jul 18, 2016

you can take your NICE OLD JACOBS and buy a new ARBOR at a fraction of the cost and then use some nitrogen and shrink it on there and then check the runout..never had one runout yet as long as your all lined up....give her a tap if need to true it up without doing the nitrogen and new arbor...wont hurt nothing...and you can buy parts for that chuck like JAWS...I repaired my precision Albrecht keyless with jaws....and did the nitrogen thing to the jacobs

daryl bane · Jul 18, 2016

I use a keyless(Albrecht) 90% of the time, unless I do some power tapping along with the drilling, then will use a keyed chuck. Keyless chucks don't like tapping, especially in reverse

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

Marty Feldman said:
How much runout is "poor" runout, and measured under what conditions?

I stay away from modern-day Jacobs chucks. No issues with older, original Jacobs chucks.

As time goes on, I find myself preferring keyed as opposed to keyless chucks, although under some production-run circumstances the speed of drill changes with keyless chucks has to be important. In all fairness, I have to say that my preference for keyed chucks is largely due to two similar experiences, one with a Jacobs keyless and one with an Albrecht keyless chuck, that were my fault. In trying to save time when mounting a large diameter drill, rather than switching to a larger chuck I rapidly spun the chuck open to its absolute maximum bore diameter, following which the chuck jaws locked up in the wide open position. The penalty in each case was much aggravation and lost time.

I have to say, though, that one of the small drill chucks used in my lathe tailstock is an older Albrecht keyless that has performed flawlessly for years. I think of it as important to slow up a bit and go carefully if opening it up to near its largest bore, and to stop short of maximum.

One final random thought: if you get a good chuck which is not mounted, do not scrimp on arbor quality.

-Marty-

Hi Marty ... thank you for your comments - most welcomed!

Well as for run out ... not felt the need to measure it! ... one chuck is like an egg whisk (slightly exaggerated) ... or "Enough" to know its out!

I think your "Random" thought is spot on and one I'd already set myself up for

John

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

Hi Johnny .. thanks for your comments on the "Nice" old Jacobs. Recently stripped and cleaned my Albrecht Keyless and emailed Albrecht for some new ball bearings ... still awaiting their reply :angry:

John

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

daryl bane said:
I use a keyless(Albrecht) 90% of the time, unless I do some power tapping along with the drilling, then will use a keyed chuck. Keyless chucks don't like tapping, especially in reverse

Ha! stupid me ... completely forgot the tapping side and operating in reverse! - Great comment :eek:

John

projectnut · Jul 18, 2016

I have about 1/2 a dozen keyless chucks (mostly Albrecht) and over a dozen keyed chucks (mostly Jacobs). I find the keyed style out perform the keyless in almost every operation. The keyless style are easier and quicker, but don't seem to hold as tight. Like others I do a lot of drilling and tapping operations. I find the keyed style chucks hold much better on any quick reverse operation.

Hardened · Jul 18, 2016

I think worrying about runout on a drill chuck is akin to worrying about corner radii on a sledge hammer. It's not the most precise tool for the job, but flaws and all, it gets it done.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Jul 18, 2016

Keyless for me.

Regards Tyrone.

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

Hi Projectnut

Thanks very much for your comments. Starting to get the idea that keyed may be the way to go ... however it's been said the "newer" Jacobs are not as good as the older ones.

John :cheers:

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

Hardened said:
I think worrying about runout on a drill chuck is akin to worrying about corner radii on a sledge hammer. It's not the most precise tool for the job, but flaws and all, it gets it done.

Hmmm ... not my style but each to their own :rolleyes5:

PeteM · Jul 18, 2016

First thing I do with a new (or new-to-me) chuck is carefully put it on an arbor and measure the runout with a pin near the middle of the chuck's range. If it's something like an Albrecht and the runout seems excessive, I might try refitting another arbor.

Truly crappy-running chucks find their way back out of my shop.

It's sometimes a surprise which chucks run .001 TIR and which ones .010 TIR. Also a surprise (or not) how carefully fitting a careful arbor can make a big difference. Half a dozen various Albrecht's run .001-.002 TIR. A Jacobs keyless clone was terrible. One Japanese keyed chuck does as well as the Albrechts.

My Jacbos 20N is .004 TIR. This includes the runout from an R8 to MT3 arbor and an MT3 arbor on the chuck itself. Not bad for a large chuck.

My worst drill chuck, at .005 TIR, is a Jacobs 18N in a 3/4" straight arbor in a known-good Hardinge collet; all with a new-looking body and jaws.

Worst chuck that ever got measured was around .030 TIR -- with enough wobble to make putting an indicator on it just an exercise in curiosity.

ruby · Jul 18, 2016

My rule of thumb is.... over 1/2" drill you have to use a keyed chuck

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

PeteM said:
It's sometimes a surprise which chucks run .001 TIR and which ones .010 TIR. Also a surprise (or not) how carefully fitting a careful arbor can make a big difference. Half a dozen various Albrecht's run .001-.002 TIR. A Jacobs keyless clone was terrible. One Japanese keyed chuck does as well as the Albrechts.

Very interesting points about fitting the arbor Pete ... Comments appreciated

Thanks

John :typing:

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Keyless for me. Regards Tyrone.

Trust you Tyrone! A Mancunian calling a spade a spade

B-Mathews · Jul 18, 2016

If I could I would not own any drill chucks at all. To me they all suck any more.

IronReb · Jul 18, 2016

Jersey John said:
Trust you Tyrone! A Mancunian calling a spade a spade

That's only because Tyrone is maintenance and never can find a key for the keyed chucks...damn machinist keep them hide from maintenance, everyone knows this!

Jersey John · Jul 18, 2016

B-Mathews said:
If I could I would not own any drill chucks at all. To me they all suck any more.

But clearly you do need them, so are you saying they are not accurate ... and if so what are you using?

yardbird · Jul 18, 2016

IronReb said:
That's only because Tyrone is maintenance and never can find a key for the keyed chucks...damn machinist keep them hide from maintenance, everyone knows this!

Yeah if you give them the chuck keys they'll over tighten the darn things and spring the jaws witch IMHO where a lot of the runout comes from.

Just a little stick poke Tyrone.

I do believe that is how a lot of the keyed chucks get damaged. Over tightening them. Probably why everyone says the keyless chucks last longer and have better runout? Not as easy to over tighten? My 2 cents...

Brent

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