Am I crazy? remove carport/garage and...

Am I crazy?

I have a problem I would like to solve. The problem is shop space. I own a 1953 865 SF ranch home in SE michigan. I am in a City.

I have a carport/garage that is currently serving as my shop. I have an OD grinder, Surface grinder, CNC BP, CNC lathe and a 4000lb 7ftx5ft welding/layoht table.

Additionally, I have several smaller shop tools like a drill press and a cold saw. Lots of tooling also.

My carport/garage is only a one car size, the slab is in shit shape and is of dubious construction.

I cannot afford the 10-20K to build a real garage. actually, I would like to have no garage at all. my lot size is TINY, .07Acres the more green space i can have the better.

I think I may have had a flash of genius!

Screw my garage. why dont I tear it off the side of the house and yank the busted up slab. Tear out my shitty ashphalt drive and go with gravel.

I dont currently use my basement for anything. I do laundry there and my furnace and water heater are down there, but really, its 865 SF of potential shop space. the height is workable, and it would double to triple my shop space.

why not just put in a pit, 9x7 or 10x8 that sits more or less where the attached garage currently sits? it can have a large set of doors, like a basement bulkhead entry. it can have stairs OR just a set of rebar rungs. it would only be for occasional movement in or out of large items (machine tools and motorcycles) I can fab a decent sized gantry that has one or two chainfalls.

I might be crazy, but here are the big points-

1. no shitty carport/garage.
2. more green space for my TINY lot.
3. 865 SF of climate controlled, already built, secure shop space- my basement!
4. low/er cost.

I can do the demo myself. have the old garage hauled away for under 500.00 probably have the slab and the ashphalt drive hauled away for another 1000.00

I can dig the new hole, have the basement wall cut 1000.00-1500.00? and have the form made and poured for 3000.00?

Then I just build the cap/doors for another 300.00

total cost? 6,300.00

What am I missing?

is this idea as good as I think it might be?

you will need some kind of drainage in that pit, unless you want your new shop to turn into a swimming pool.

The flood risk is only really dependant on the level of the local water table. If a basments dry and not constantly haveing to be pumped to stay dry it should make nice shop space. My only concern would be the increased fire risk to the house?

Zoning rules...

You'll need to research it, and make sure they don't nix a 'grandfather' rule for setback and square footage...

Usually, local ordinance regulates how much 'space' you can allocate towards 'garage/shop' use... and when you change some factor of the building's footprint, they'll quickly 'reclassify' you in a way that you cannot get permits to continue building.

But I like the idea. It'd be kinda neat to see a house with a pit alongside... and a 4-post frame with rolling gantry that comes out over the driveway to unload/load stuff into the basement pit... and use a pallet-jack to roll 'em into the basement...

But that may not go over well with the 'city powers'... especially if they smell a commercial-use condition afoot.

What you might hafta do, is come up with a clever way of 'disguising' it... say you dig the pit and install the door under the premise of basement access... and then, where the driveway WAS, you make a slightly elevated 'deck'... with a roofline like the house... and make it so that you can 'roll' the deck surface toward the rear, so you can back a truck down a ramp towards the door, lower a hook from up in the roof ceiling area, hook something, lift, lower it, pull out, retract hook, and roll floor back in place...



It will make the basement colder... using an expensive door and covering the outside of the wall with EPS foam will help...

You want to hide that pit, because of fall risks and general cosmetics.

Remove the carport, install a garage that has a roof pitch matching the house, and a ridge height allowing the door height you need.

You can install another garage door on the back, to allow drive-thru.

I would research those four-post 'parking lifts' that have a smooth surface. You would need to find some company willing to make a custom height. These things are also called 'material elevators'.

Don't you have an I-beam running the length of the house, in the basement, to support the center of the house? Which way does it run?

nateman said:

What am I missing?

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Sounds like a single guy talking.

No way a wife would go for that kind of talk. If I am wrong and you do have a wife that is agreeable to this kind of stuff, keep her.

Any zoning and/or building codes?
I have seen an owner tear down the entire building intending to rebuild only to be told NO, can't do it under the "New" codes. Check everything out before you do any demo. just my .02

Cool. You could just make it a concrete-lined pit, straight down. Fab some stairs out of 2x10s for most days. When you need to put a new Bridgeport or Monarch in, pull the stairs out and use a gantry crane. No inclines, and you have a ~30x30 shop (less the washer/dryer). No need to tough out the Michigan winters, either.

If you are doing this as a business, government, aided by any quarrelsome neighbors, is your enemy. If you insist that this is a hobby, you MIGHT get away with it, assuming you have the proper electric service,etc. for whatever you plan to do. Bear in mind that you may have to bring everything up to current code in the process of doing what you propose.

The best approach here is to get rid of the machines for the time being and tell the city you need better access to the basement for your furniture making hobby. While woodwork isn't exactly PC, it has a certain air of respectability to it that metalworking doesn't seem to have achieved.

If you are doing this as a business, you have to consider where you will store your stock and how/when you will get it into and out of the basement. Too much activity of this sort can be a bad thing on a small lot.

The alternative is probably worse, to do as much as you can without bothering with a permit. Tearing down an existing structure is too obvious to get away with. You will have to get a demolition permit (yes, things have gotten that crazy) for that. There's a small chance you can get away with the basement part of the project, but I don't think I'd risk it. These communities are simply getting too greedy and they have code enforcement people on the street every day looking for any excuse to write a ticket or collect a fee. You can't run, and you certainly can't hide. An anonymous phone call to the building department should provide some answers. If you know any contractors, ask them what your city is like in terms of leniency in building matters.

But my concern isn't with all of that. If you are determined to do so, you can probably get away with this thing somehow, even if you have to build a "sunroom" off the back of the house, and that sunroom happens to have a removable set of doors, a removable floor, and some exceptionally heavy steel framing.

My concern is with the quality of life in that house. Machining can be smelly, and it can be somewhat noisy. If you live alone, the noise won't be an issue, but what if someone else is living in that space while you are working below? I certainly wouldn't want to have a poor baby living in that atmosphere! Did you mention welding? I don't think you can ventilate well enough to keep that smoke out of the house, and if you try it in winter, you will end up freezing while you are paying gas bills for heating the neighborhood.

If this is a hobby, all of these may be moot. I only bring these things up because they are important and no one has mentioned them yet.

Another point to consider: With the real estate market around here being what it is, can you simply sell your place and pick up something better suited to your needs on the cheap? This may be the simplest and cheapest way to go.

Good luck,

Steve

on edit: No one has tackled your initial question. Are you crazy? Probably, but then so are most of us, so we're either the worst or the best people to put that question to.

on edit (again): How long do you plan to stay in that house? The changes you envision will almost certainly not enhance the value of the place, and may reduce it and/or make it less marketable. That, coupled with the added property tax cost, may make your changes quite expensive in the long run.

Granted, I live in California, but I would imagine that rules pertaining to pits are pretty much the same.
Many years ago, pits were disallowed. Remember all of the grease/oil changing pits that used to be so common? They were removed because of the danger of heavier than air fumes (propane for example). You will be creating one hell of a containment vessel if during the winter, you develop a propane heater leak.

Lee (the saw guy)

I wouldn't want to give up the garage. I would rip the concrete floor out, dig the pit for access to the basement, pour concrete walls and haunch them for upside-down u channel which becomes the floor of your garage over the pit(i saw this at the philadelphia navy yard to cover a hole in their floor)

Fix up your garage to support a hoist over the pit and store all of your support stuff.

Pete

i welded in my basement once.only once.never againg.the stank was horrendeous (sp?)
to rip out the existing garage floor and re do it would be far less than $6300.probably add a little stock room and some insulation for that 6300.i have no idea what construction materials run ,but i spent about 2000 in materials for an insulated ,finished 10x16 addition to my garage.i call it the man cave.this was built on a 10x10 slab,i added the other two yards of concrete to make it 10x16.

Another thing to consider is your home owners policy. Most insurance co.'s would nullify your policy with such an arraignment.


Jackmo

As Autofrite states it gets smelly.

I weld under a deck attatched to the house. If the basement door (access to under the deck) is left open I soon hear about it. If I use solvents, paint, start a gas engine etc. I soon hear about it. What works is remembering to keep the door shut and use fans. My dog is not my best friend in this case, unless the door is latched he is able to open it to get back into the house.

I like the idea of a pit. Lots of things that are considered OK such as decks could cover over it to keep the neighbours happy. High fences/trees help but around here I think Google Earth is used to check for alterations.

Dave

I have a friend who built a house with a basement under the garage. He used spancrete for the basement ceiling/garage floor. I would rebuild the garage that way. Use the space above/below the garage as you like. When complete the house will look as before.

Leave the garage and carport alone. break up the garage floor and dig a pit a bit deeper than the basement floor. pour a floor in the pit about 6" lower than the basement floor. Pour concrete walls or use block to Finnish the pit. get one of those 4 post car lifts and set it up in the pit as an elevator. This way you can easily get the machines in and out of the basement and still have a garage / carport for your car and storage. when you are not using the lift keep it in the up position. use it as the floor in the garage. Then no one can fall in the pit.

I ran a machine shop fab shop from my house for 10 years and I destroyed my house. I built with out permits I ran power all over the place I broke the slab from heavy machines. The bathroom rusted from all the steel chips that fell off my clothes the carpet is wasted and I step on metal chips in my bare feet. My wife is a saint she put up with this until production really took off and I melted my sub panels and blew up wires. I even got her to shut off the ac while I worked so I wouldnt blow the main breakers. I replaced fuses with steel rod because the amperage was so high. I finally gave in and moved out to an industrial shop and today life is great.

I replaced fuses with steel rod because the amperage was so high.

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HOLY MOLEY
That is nutz

Jeez Kevin,

Steel rod, what were you thinking.
A chunk of copper pipe is much safer.

Dave

(I'm glad you're still here to tell us about it. While desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures usually there are much safer albeit still not kosher alternatives.)

You know when you are doing something bad, but you do it anyway because you are totally fed up. Well that was the situation. I have too many machine and not enough power. Just to let you know what happens when you pump to much power through the lines while taking a big cut on a K&T horizontal without fuses: the wires blow up and the panel melts. I am no longer at home I now have 600 amps of 3 phase power and a few thousand square feet.