Loctite 209

Had a spindle chromed, and ground. They messed it up. No point into getting into the story, bottom line.....I'm stuck with a shaft that's about 2 tenths undersize at one journal. This journal holds a tapered roller bearing that has to move in order to set preload. But it's not supposed to move easily. It should be a light interference fit.

I could live with a few tenths if it was the original shaft material. 1137. I figure I'd just dimple the journal with a punch, and call it a day. I can't do this with chrome, I'm afraid it would start mud cracking at the punch location.

Okay, so I'm out of spec. Gotta live with it. BUT I NEED TO FIND A WAY TO KEEP THE INNER CONE FROM SPINNING ON THE SHAFT. The chrome is too slick to provide traction when side load is applied by the spindle pulley.

As far as I see it, I gots only a few options.

1. Either roughen the bearing bore, or the shaft journal, with a coarse stone.
2. Use 209 to keep it from spinning. Problem.....it's permanent until heated to 300 degrees to soften the bond. That ain't gonna work when I gotta set preload again later down the road. Once after initial run in, and again when the rollers start to wear.

209 is supposed to be the weakest locational adhesive out there, and they say it can be removed with conventional tools. Yeah, and I got some lake front property in a flood plain I'd like to sell ya

Yeah, I called tech support at Loctite. Dood just read me the product literature

I'm thinking that maybe I could just use a dab of this miracle stuff, instead of coating the entire journal. Enough to provide traction, but weak enough to come loose at a later date.

Anyways, hope y'all have had some experience with this stuff. Thanks

All spindles I have ever seen(mostly automotive) equipped with tapper roller bearing have had a slip fit between the spindle and the roller cone. Never had any problem as long as the cone had some grease in it. I think you are maybe just slightly a tiny bit overthinking this one.

Before I retired, we used an electroplating technique called brush plating for thin layers of copper, nickel, and chrome on items that could not be immersed in an electroplating bath. If you could find someone with the equipment, building a few tenths should be a matter of minutes. I'd do the bearing with a softer material than chrome so if this didn't work, the shaft wouldn't be changed and some other technique could be tried. Talk to the experts, they'll know better than I what to do.

Could you brush plate it back up to size? Oh hell, didn't type fast enough. Beat by three minutes and three towns over.

Red James said:

All spindles I have ever seen(mostly automotive) equipped with tapper roller bearing have had a slip fit between the spindle and the roller cone. Never had any problem as long as the cone had some grease in it. I think you are maybe just slightly a tiny bit overthinking this one.

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Aw crap! I should have been clear on this. Sorry.

It's a lathe spindle.

Sorry

I think brush plating would do it. I'll see if somebody over in Tulsa has the capability to do it.

I already have $475 in the original build/grind, but a bit more wouldn't break the bank (yah right, &^%#$%*@) This has been a good lesson....don't accept the low bid...there's a reason they beat the others.

I guess, at this point, I could be the Guinea Pig, and try the 209. Worst case, I'd just trash a bearing when I have to move it. Timken 14125#3's are hard to find though. Found this one NOS offa Amazon at a highway robbery price.

If you have an interference fit on the bearing moved to set preload, what do you do to back it off if during adjustment you get a little tight? Rap the end of the spindle? My mill and lathe both use tapered roller bearings on the spindle and both of them release as soon as I back the nut off.

How about some high viscosity damping grease like NyoGel 774VH between bearing and shaft? You can get a sample kit with eight different grease from Nye for the asking.

Gordon Heaton said:

If you have an interference fit on the bearing moved to set preload, what do you do to back it off if during adjustment you get a little tight? Rap the end of the spindle? My mill and lathe both use tapered roller bearings on the spindle and both of them release as soon as I back the nut off.

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Hell, maybe I am overthinking it. But I'm still out by .0002, and the bearing cone does spin easily on the shaft.



Timken calls the cone bore at 0>.0005 tolerance, and the boys at Clausing seemed to build the shaft to suit. I'm sitting at 1.250 dead nutz now.

That baby is gonna move IMHO. Guess I could install it, and visually check for movement at RPM, but I hate to start any kind of wear on it.

I guess it's really a transitional fit, but close enough, at max OD to be doggone near a light interference fit in practical terms. This isn't my thing, I'm more of a fabricating guy. Dumass welder I guess

If you're 'dead on' size now, I'd say you're ready to rock! It won't spin on the shaft under preload. Being the back end of the spindle, even if you end up with .0002 clearance on that fit it would, for all practical purposes, be zero runout at the business end.

farmersamm said:

. . .the bearing cone does spin easily on the shaft. . .

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OK, if you can feel clearance or slop it needs work. If you can't feel any, but you can measure clearance in excess of .0005 between the bearing bore and the spindle, it might need work, but at that level I'd still run it.

Hmmm......You can regrow the undersized shaft by knurling and then recutting to size. Just a thought.

On second thought, nope not gonna work...............Chromed shaft..........why?

I see four of those spindles on eBay right now priced from $70 to $150 + shipping. Out of respect for the site rules, I will not provide links, but you know what to search for. The two expensive ones even include both bearings.

I bought one of those lathes new in 1972 or so and kept it a few years before upgrading, so I can say I am very surprised anyone would spend much on "repairing" the headstock spindle. Yes, I know the factory would charge more than my lathe cost back then to make a new spindle, but that does not make an old lathe worth spending much on parts. The $70 to $150 sounds like a fair price.

An alternative to Loctite 209 would be Permatex No. 2, which is non-hardening. Permatex(R) Form-A-Gasket(R) No. 2 Sealant - Permatex

Larry

So i am confused....You sent this shaft out to a commercial shop with a drawing calling out the required specs on the part to be repaired.
It came back out of spec....what's the issue?
Its the shop's problem if they did not follow the specified dimension....Sounds like re-work on their part.

No drawing or specification, then it is on you i guess....perhaps a solution would be to cut a groove in the ID of the bearing at the end where the taper is thickest and fit an "O" ring..
Make the fit up tighter than normal (more squeeze) .It will stabilize the bearing and prevent rotation on the shaft.
Cheers Ross

If you should need another bearing I would check with Locate Ball bearing out of Palm Desert CA. I purchased a number of bearings from them for my Sheldon lathe. They aren't a traditional bearing retailer, but rather they buy out bankrupt businesses, and obsolete and overstock. I paid far less for bearings from them than I could find anywhere else. Here's some contact information should you need it.

Eric Leimkuhler
75090 St. Charles Place
Suite B
Palm Desert, CA 92211
United States
Phone: 800-409-3632
[email protected]
Locate Ball Bearings - USA and Worldwide Service

Just a thought. You say the bearing rotates freely on the shaft. I know chrome is smoother than the native material, but do you think .0002” is going to tighten it up?

Cmsmoke said:

Just a thought. You say the bearing rotates freely on the shaft. I know chrome is smoother than the native material, but do you think .0002” is going to tighten it up?

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0.0002” difference in transition fit is huge difference if the parts are round and surfaces are smooth. Bearing falling off by its own weight vs. too tight to move at all by hand.

I know it seems strange to lavish so much time/money on an antique. And I hate to waste anybody's time here. But it's going to run into about the 3K range to get it rolling again, all told. Which isn't too bad for 60" between centers, something very important to me. I need the distance. Doggone farm equipment is generally made with strange power transfer setups....long shafts are pretty regular on this stuff.

Nothing on this machine, except for the spindle, has been sent out. Everything has been done "in house". I've never liked to farm out any work here, no matter what kind. It's always wound up in disappointment. This has been just another example of the usual luck I have. At my age, it's not worth the fight. Hell, even had one of the 2 QC guys tell me that I'm measuring the shaft/bearing at the wrong temp. I don't care whether it's 20 degrees, or 120 degrees.........when shaft, and bearing are at the same temp, it's all relative... there's excess clearance. 1.250 shaft will not properly fit a 1.2505 bearing, that 5 tenths is still there at all temperatures.

If'n I had a serviceable lathe, this spindle would have been "in house" too. Build it out with bronze, cut it to fit. Heat distortion is fairly easy to manage if you're familiar with it.

The original issue:



Prime example of cone spinning on shaft. I don't want the same to happen again.

This machine is rife with worn parts. But they're manageable.

Worn worm gear on apron.



Bronze buildup, machined back to size.



The new bushing was necessary because it was not feasible to do a weld overlay on one end of the gear. It appears to be high sulfur steel, and causes mondo porosity when welded with E70 wire (I ran about 1/2" of bead, and immediately stopped). 7018 might have worked, but stick welding creates a lot of heat input. I'm a bit afraid of raising the base metal to critical temp. So, the solution was to trash the existing bronze bushing, overlay the shaft with bronze, and make a steel bushing for it to ride on.





You can see the effect of brazing. Lotta blue there In all likelihood, there's been a change to that metal. But twas broke to begin with, and can't get any broker Besides...it's made out of that rare metal.....Unobtainium. So you do the best you can do I guess.

If everyone doesn't consider this thread a big PITA, I can keep it going, or post similar stuff related to the rebuild. Next on the agenda is a leadscrew, and lead nut rebuild on the cross slide. A partial rebuild on some missing casting on the saddle, and a few other things.

You guys have been a great deal of help. Gonna do some experiments with some of the suggestions, and see if they're workable. At least I have somewhere to start.

Hell, it just came to my attention when I read a "sticky". This probably doesn't belong here at all. It's an old machine, and probably belongs in another forum. Sorry.