Looking for rigid spray foam---harder than "Great Stuff" for instance, for shipping

dgfoster · Jul 29, 2017

Looking for rigid spray foam---harder than "Great Stuff" for instance, for shipping

I have to ship some 25 pound cast iron castings roughly 3x6x36". I would like to find a hard foam that would fill up the space and provide a foam-filled 1" space all around the casting in a heavy duty cardboard box. The foam need's to be rigid enough to not collapse in normal UPS handling providing impact resistance and would hopefully more or less allow the box to benefit from the strength of the casting. Foams like Great Stuff are just not hard enough. They are fine for their intended use as insulating gap fillers, but I need something more like the pink insulating foam sheeting but in a spray or bagged moldable form. Ideas? It would be nice if the cost could be ten dollars or less per box. I expect to ship 5 to 10 boxes not 50 or 100.

Denis

DDoug · Jul 29, 2017

Take it to a shipping vendor that uses the proper Sealed Air
2 part foam.

I don't know how far back it was, but "fearless leader" Milacron
did a pretty good write up on the stuff, the 2nd best version, and so on.

BTW it's not "spray" it's more "pourable".

johansen · Jul 29, 2017

I'm having difficulty believing that expanding foam isn't hard enough. Though it really depends on the temperature at which it expanded and cured.

In my experience it comes out similar in density and strength to the polyurethane sheets sold as rigid insulation, which is about 2 pounds per cubic foot.

if you really need half a cubic foot of foam, at 4$ per pound at 4 pounds per cubic foot you're looking at 8$ just for the foam.

JST · Jul 29, 2017

Back at a prior employer, I had to do a study of them. But we got the material in pallet size tanks for the parts A and B (polyols and isocyanates).

What you want is not really a rigid foam, but a foam that is somewhat rubbery. It has to not crush with an impact. The stuff we had been using was rigid, and after one hit, it had all the compressive strength of angel food cake. That was not doing it for us, and the makers were clueless. I found a company that made better stuff.

Honestly, in your place, I think I would get some of the rigid closed cell polyethylene foam. It is whitish translucent, and you can walk on it, it is that strong. Then cut strips and blocks to pack around. Places that have packing material should have it.

Yes, it is more trouble. But with the spray/pour foams, you really do not know what you are getting. With the poly foam, you know right away, there is no question. And you can cut it to form corners or whatever you need..

There IS a bag stuff that turns into a foam when you break the container inside the bag. You could try that out, and it may be OK. That way at least you get to test one after it has foamed up. IIRC, it was made by the company we found was better.

LFLondon · Jul 29, 2017

From Ferguson's plumbing, General Electric spray foam, waterproof and very hard when cured. 12 oz. spray can; buy a case and get really good discount. This is what you need. Forget great stuff or clones, its worthless. The GE is the same (more or less) as what construction insulation contractors use on buildings, Icinene is one of them, and when used between rafters provides an additional structural element adding considerable rigidity to a roof. It takes a hammer and chisel to remove if from surfaces once applied.

dgfoster · Jul 29, 2017

JST said:
. <Snip>

Honestly, in your place, I think I would get some of the rigid closed cell polyethylene foam. It is whitish translucent, and you can walk on it, it is that strong. Then cut strips and blocks to pack around. Places that have packing material should have it.

<Snip>.

Ya, that is Plan B. I was hoping for something slicker that I did not know about.

Denis

Monarchist · Jul 29, 2017

dgfoster said:
Ya, that is Plan B. I was hoping for something slicker that I did not know about.

Denis

I second JST on the Polyethylene, AND NOT Corn waste byproducts, Styrenes, Polyurethanes, or Iso-whatis-cyanates or cousins.

Among other things, it is clean, not at all messy, and is eminently reusable.

Ergo it makes for less hassle, more smiles, and fewer annoyed critics at the receiving end.

Tony Quiring · Jul 29, 2017

We posted a photo of the stuff we receive often.

It is in a bag with an activator in it that causes the foam to fill the bag and form fit.

In past life we received the injected type which seemed to do well.

If production the injected type may be best but short counts the bags seem to do well.

Google should find many.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

tdmidget · Jul 29, 2017

"Normal UPS handling"

I bought a transmission for an antique car. Smokin' deal. The shipper took it to a UPS store and they packed it with the bags Tony refers to. It arrived with the bell housing shattered. A bell housing was on Ebay for $49.99. I tried to file a claim. UPS said they had to pick it up to inspect it. They sent it back to the shipper, letting him out of the deal. They paid $450.00 to HIM. He parted it out and I have no gearbox.
There is no packing method that will withstand "Normal UPS handling". And nothing will survive UPS stupidity.

Mud · Jul 29, 2017

digger doug said:
Take it to a shipping vendor that uses the proper Sealed Air
2 part foam.

.

This is probably the most cost effective way if you can manage it. Sealed Air makes a variety of packing foams but the whole system is costly. Their foam named "molding foam" cures quite rigid and resistant to crushing, but the most likely shippers to be using it would be those shipping very heavy items. I ship items in the 25-40 lb range most often and use a foam 2 steps lighter than molding foam without a single loss in years, so you probably don't need the densest foam. SA does sell Instapak Quick Tuff bags that might work, but sit down when you price enough to ship 10 boxes - 22" x 2" (No. 65) Sealed Air Instapak Quick Tuff Room Temperature Foam Packaging Bag (1 Bag) - AB-535-265: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

DDoug · Jul 30, 2017

I had a temp job where I packed those 1-2hp 90 vdc motors
into their boxes, and ran the instapak gun all day.

DMF_TomB · Jul 30, 2017

most castings i see use wood to hold castings from moving. 2x4 and 4x4 and a air nailer, takes less than a minute to nail it up, sort of a custom pallet
.
wood usually cheaper than foam too. only problem i ever see is when they use 3/4 or even 3/8" thick wood trying to hold a 1 ton casting. obviously you got to use big enough wood

DDoug · Jul 30, 2017

Polystyrene can be glued with simple PVA (AKA Elmers glue)

I have not tried it, but was contemplating trying this experiment:
1. get some packing peanuts, NOT the new water soluble type.
2. in a large container, mix them with the elmers glue, probably
thinned with water 4 to 1 or so.
3. When all coated nicely, pour this in your box, and let set
to harden.

dgfoster · Jul 30, 2017

digger doug said:
Polystyrene can be glued with simple PVA (AKA Elmers glue)

I have not tried it, but was contemplating trying this experiment:
1. get some packing peanuts, NOT the new water soluble type.
2. in a large container, mix them with the elmers glue, probably
thinned with water 4 to 1 or so.
3. When all coated nicely, pour this in your box, and let set
to harden.

And I was thinking similarly of using the foam pellets like those used in bean bag chairs with some form of binder. The bean bag chair pellets are smaller and seemingly would have more bearing. Exactly what binder is uncertain. Mixing would be a gloppy mess I think.

Given the price of the purpose-made expanding foams I think they are off the table for me. My current thinking is to make plywood end blocks for the castings and saw or hot-wire more-or-less-conforming rigid insulating sheet to fil in the space between the end blocks. Dropping etc should primarily impact the ends and the wood would resist compression far better than foam. The foam is light and firm enough I think for spanning the area between the blocks and supporting the double-thick cardboard box. I will try hot glue to bond the foam and to construct the box and then generously use fiberglass tape for the final strapping. I am not sure if the foam will withstand the hot glue though.

Still tossing around ideas. All the input to this point is appreciated.

Denis

kb0thn · Jul 30, 2017

Instapak RT is what you want for occasional use. They are a bag within a bag. You pop the inner bag, kneed it back and fourth, and then it starts expanding. The RT stands for room temperature. They are expensive. I take them with me into the field when I know I need to ship something fragile or difficult home. McMaster-Carr and Uline carry them.
Instapack Quick Rt in Stock - ULINE
McMaster-Carr

(buy single pouch from McMaster to try out)

surplusjohn · Jul 30, 2017

One idea. Build up several layers of corrugated board or honeycomb board. Absorb impact and the receiver can just toss into their cardboard recycling. Your local carton maker can provide these cut to size. Our you can cut on table saw

Toms Wheels · Jul 30, 2017

For castings the size you are making, wood boxes are the best. I've shipped items like surface grinder beds, Spindles, Vises. all through the hands of the UPS gorillas. And these were used to and from places. Never an issue with damage.A wood crate is built with the plywood inside, the ribs on the outside, the item directly secured with blocks screwed to the box, allow no movement of the item in the box.

Labor is a bunch, materials cheap. But it works well.

DDoug · Jul 30, 2017

dgfoster said:
And I was thinking similarly of using the foam pellets like those used in bean bag chairs with some form of binder. The bean bag chair pellets are smaller and seemingly would have more bearing. Exactly what binder is uncertain. Mixing would be a gloppy mess I think.

I just told you... in the post you quoted from me.....

BTW you always wrap your part in a bag before putting
it in the box, wether using peanuts, can foam, IP professional
stuff....whatever.

dgfoster · Jul 30, 2017

Toms Wheels said:
For castings the size you are making, wood boxes are the best. I've shipped items like surface grinder beds, Spindles, Vises. all through the hands of the UPS gorillas. And these were used to and from places. Never an issue with damage.A wood crate is built with the plywood inside, the ribs on the outside, the item directly secured with blocks screwed to the box, allow no movement of the item in the box.

Labor is a bunch, materials cheap. But it works well.

I know you are right that building fitted plywood a box which is then wrapped in corrugated is best. I have done that to ship this item in the past and you are also right that it is a MAJOR PITA. It provided "absolute" protection. However, not only does it take a fair bit of labor, it also adds significantly to weight which increases shoipping cost.. So,, being lazy and cheap, I was hoping for a lighter and less labor-intensive solution that would still provide adequate strength and padding for shipping. Bare wood is OK, I think for freight shipping, but I believe (am I wrong?) that UPS, Fedex, and USPS want corrugated outer shells.

Denis

dgfoster · Jul 30, 2017

kb0thn said:
Instapak RT is what you want for occasional use. They are a bag within a bag. You pop the inner bag, kneed it back and fourth, and then it starts expanding. The RT stands for room temperature. They are expensive. I take them with me into the field when I know I need to ship something fragile or difficult home. McMaster-Carr and Uline carry them.
Instapack Quick Rt in Stock - ULINE
McMaster-Carr

(buy single pouch from McMaster to try out)

Not only are the bags very expensive they also are not very flexible with respect to box shape/volume. For my item I would have to buy 4 bags at a minimum and the box needed, in order to accomodate the volume of the bags, would have to be twice as large as ordinarily necessary.

This shows the warmer packs though the RT needs no warmer. Same volume issues though. Instapak Quick - YouTube

They do offer excellent protection though.

Denis

Looking for rigid spray foam---harder than "Great Stuff" for instance, for shipping

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