Lubricant that will allow post machining welding without cleanup?

Today's job is a run of fifty 10x40 flats, each with a top 21mm hole and four lower 17mm holes. These will be erected on site, and round bar inserted and welded to form what is know in the UK as parkland or estate fencing.

In an ideal world I'd own a punch. Instead I have a mill and an MT3 annular cutter holder. I knocked up an extending stop to bolt to the table and this works great for quick repeatability. I didn't want to use an oil as coolant when drilling as then I would need to clean this up post machining to be able to weld and paint.

For this job I've just used water, misted through an airline coolant spray thingy. It worked fantastically. I will give the mill a good oil up when I'm done, but it got me wondering- is there a better alternative for this sort of job? Do soluble lubricants need to be cleaned off parts pre weld/paint? Wikipedia says it was common in days gone by to add baking soda to the lubricant water to reduce rusting- is this true? Minimal rusting of the stock before painting is also desirable, but a little is unavoidable given that it will be assembled bare outdoors and not painted until it's all done and looking good.

Thanks

Parkland Fencing eh? .......that brings back memories - over 1 1/2 miles of the bloody stuff by the time the client had finished ..........but oh what a summer

I never used to bother cleaning soluble oil off for welding, (Lord knows what the HSE will say about that ) but it has to be degreased for painting.

While water will keep the job and cutter cool it has next to zero lubricity do tool wear will be higher.

One thing I have done is have a bucket (5 gallon drum with the top cut off) with a strong washing soda solution next to the machine, .....machine part then rinse off straight away, using something like a bannister brush - takes longer to type this than wash a part.

I'd be interested in what this thread turns up. In my experience, post-machining welding (stick) has always wanted nice clean metal, meaning among other things removal of lubricants, at least those of the oily kind. I have recently begun to use on some jobs water-based cutting fluids, such as the green Anchor lube (made by Boeing, I think). Haven't tested it for welding compatibility.

-Marty-

doobin said:

Today's job is a run of fifty 10x40 flats, each with a top 21mm hole and four lower 17mm holes. These will be erected on site, and round bar inserted and welded to form what is know in the UK as parkland or estate fencing.

In an ideal world I'd own a punch. Instead I have a mill and an MT3 annular cutter holder. I knocked up an extending stop to bolt to the table and this works great for quick repeatability. I didn't want to use an oil as coolant when drilling as then I would need to clean this up post machining to be able to weld and paint.

For this job I've just used water, misted through an airline coolant spray thingy. It worked fantastically. I will give the mill a good oil up when I'm done, but it got me wondering- is there a better alternative for this sort of job? Do soluble lubricants need to be cleaned off parts pre weld/paint? Wikipedia says it was common in days gone by to add baking soda to the lubricant water to reduce rusting- is this true? Minimal rusting of the stock before painting is also desirable, but a little is unavoidable given that it will be assembled bare outdoors and not painted until it's all done and looking good.

Thanks

Click to expand...

most modern coolants are a mix of cleaner, coolant, rust resistance properties. ph from adding chemicals you got to watch. caustic and water will clean oil and paint off steel and not rust. but if you wash off caustic with clean water and do not dry immediately it will rust within minutes quite often.
.
some chemicals will damage paint as well as rubbers and plastics effects machine. orings start leaking often cause of chemicals. some chemicals rubber will swell and get soft like macaroni noodles. usually thats not good

My first question is, am I the guy that has to paint it? If not then I don't really care....
We have used Kool-Mist #78 on steel with no issues found when welding ( mig ) without cleanup.
The fact you're talking about a fence vs. some kind of life support, takes the worry
out of it.
David

I use my regular coolant/lubricant for machining and then throw the whole lot of finished parts in an ultrasonic cleaner (essential in any shop) with water and detergent (I am using "Simple Green"). Welds perfectly after.

Limy Sami said:

Parkland Fencing eh? .......that brings back memories - over 1 1/2 miles of the bloody stuff by the time the client had finished ..........but oh what a summer

I never used to bother cleaning soluble oil off for welding, (Lord knows what the HSE will say about that ) but it has to be degreased for painting.

While water will keep the job and cutter cool it has next to zero lubricity do tool wear will be higher.

One thing I have done is have a bucket (5 gallon drum with the top cut off) with a strong washing soda solution next to the machine, .....machine part then rinse off straight away, using something like a bannister brush - takes longer to type this than wash a part.

Click to expand...

Thanks Limey, had a feeling you might have done this before! Any tips for when it comes to erect it?

I've finished the run, and for comparison I used baking soda in the water for the last two holes in every post. Noticeably less corrosion in the bottom holes this morning, so it appears that it does indeed have some effect. Not enough that I'd leave the machine bed unoiled after use however!

I'm pretty happy with the cutter wear using just water as a coolant- after 200 holes it feels good as new. 2m long flats are somewhat unwieldy so I feel the wear on a £12 annular cutter is acceptable compared to the time to wash each flat but that's a good tip for other jobs.

doobin said:

Thanks Limey, had a feeling you might have done this before! Any tips for when it comes to erect it?

I've finished the run, and for comparison I used baking soda in the water for the last two holes in every post.

Click to expand...

Thanks for coming back mate, ......erecting tips ? (bear in mind this was in the days before Viagra)

But seriously, I think Park railings done well look nice,..but it's very easy to get it wrong and end up with a shit looking job or outright mess, so this is how I went about it.

I did most of that job single handed but I'm like that (Stubborn ) so another pair of hands is very handy if not a must.

Obviously working to a line or marked curve, dig plenty of holes first .more than you need for say a 12m run (or whatever) and make em plenty big, a 6'' auger is not too large
Put in the first 2 or 3 posts and prop them with wood and clamps, plus chocks in the holes - you need em firm but moveable ??

Start threading your rods adding post as you go, and bracing with wood struts etc etc then when you have at least 5 M line them all up how you want it, taking in to account the ground contour - that can throw the job right out - I strongly advise you work closely with the client on the final ''look'' - changing it's a bastard!

Once happy ram in dry lean concrete or post mix, and if damp etc lightly ''water'' the top with a concrete accelerator (it sets postcrete n drylean off in flash ) then rinse and repeat.

Bit long winded maybe, but IMHO it's one of those jobs that above all else HAS to look right.

Bending curves etc etc I used a simple couple of hardwood blocks about a foot long (bolted to the trailer floor actually) using block like that - with of course the obligatory piece of water pipe (aka gas barrel) as a cheater gives control and therefore nice smooth bends.

Welding the bars I simply cut the end of one only at 60 - 70 deg to leave a narrow vee, n set so I was welding on the flat - then grind off to finish ( and we never had flap wheels then )


Can't think of anything else other than HAVE FUN

I was leaning more toward hi-Sulphur 90 weight black threadcut oil.....Stick welding will have no problem burning it off....

Would keep the cutter happy.

'Course, the job wouldn't repeat...

Great tips Limy and I'm glad I asked- I was planning on joining the bars at the posts (as they'd flex out the way to cut the bar) but your way sounds much quicker and less reliant on getting the post spacings perfect. I was going to use a fast set wet mix and a 4" auger, but dry mix leaves much more room for adjustment- just tap the post down or pull it up and then tamp the mix. I've done tons of wooden post and rail, and like you say, it's gotta look right when you step back.

What concrete accelerator do you recommend? You're saying water it onto a tamped dry mix? I use fast set cement all the time, but that won't leave time for the adjustment.

doobin said:

Great tips Limy and I'm glad I asked- I was planning on joining the bars at the posts (as they'd flex out the way to cut the bar) but your way sounds much quicker and less reliant on getting the post spacings perfect. I was going to use a fast set wet mix and a 4" auger, but dry mix leaves much more room for adjustment- just tap the post down or pull it up and then tamp the mix. I've done tons of wooden post and rail, and like you say, it's gotta look right when you step back.

What concrete accelerator do you recommend? You're saying water it onto a tamped dry mix? I use fast set cement all the time, but that won't leave time for the adjustment.

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Accelerator? .now you're asking Doobin me ole china, (that job was the summer of 1976 ) ....but from memory of what was around at the time it would more than likely have been a Feb product, ......mixed as per instructions and applied with a rose on a watering can.

FWIW - I know postcrete goes off fast, but sometimes you need a quicker ''half set'' so you can get on with the next bit.

After machining, but before installation, do you paint everything with weldable primer, or leave it bare and just prime/paint the exposed parts later?