Thread: Which machinist level is better?

I do not live in the US but have an opportunity to order a machinist level from US. So the question is addressed to US machinists,... I guess. Here are two examples of levels that I can order:

12" MASTER PRECISION LEVEL FOR MACHINIST TOOL NEW .0005 | eBay


Starrett #98-8 Machinists Level 8" 98 shaft Level I SHIP FAST | eBay

So which type to go for (from Your experience)?


Thank You in advance and appreciate Your help.

The second one is NOT a precision level

Oh yeah my bad,... well say the one on the top against one like this:

Starret No. 98 12" precision level in wooden case | eBay

well, it says precision but I dont see it's accuracy. Also I noticed 98 type number,... what would that mean for starret levels, also, if I look for .0005 in/ft accuracy what would I be looking for?

Again, thanx.

Originally Posted by bojniklathe

I do not live in the US but have an opportunity to order a machinist level from US. So the question is addressed to US machinists,... I guess. Here are two examples of levels that I can order:

12" MASTER PRECISION LEVEL FOR MACHINIST TOOL NEW .0005 | eBay


Starrett #98-8 Machinists Level 8" 98 shaft Level I SHIP FAST | eBay

So which type to go for (from Your experience)?


Thank You in advance and appreciate Your help.

Actually depends on what you plan to DO with a level, and how often.

The uber-precision ones are a RPITA (Royal Pain In The Anatomy - must have a local equivalent in Bosnia) for anything but the most demanding tasks because their bubble goes walkabout with the slightest of movement. Great for hand-scraping a precision machine tool's ways, not so useful for anything less precise.

There is at least one thread on PM about all that, plus whether the base should be grooved or flat, whether 'flat' is really flat, or has a very minute curve put in by the maker, and which models are made in what manner among US, Polish, Swiss, British, French, Chinese, and Japanese levels.

Worth a read. Feel free to add to that if you have exposure to Russian, Czech or former-Yugoslav levels, as I'm sure they exist.

My personal conclusion from it?

As a level is easily checked by simply reversing it, and any error corrected by making a note and mentally compensating OR by scraping and adjusting, there are neither perfectly good nor terribly bad levels.

Some are better suited out-of-the box to a given task, some are more durable or less sensitive to heat, etc. All can be repaired or simply adapted to if need be.

Ergo the 'best' level is the one you have because you could afford it, not the one you wish you had.

Bill

Originally Posted by bojniklathe

Oh yeah my bad,... well say the one on the top against one like this:

Maybe English is not your first language, I see your from Bosnia. Or you didn't understand what JohnO had said to you.

What JohnO meant to say is that a Starret 98 is not a precision level. Your second link is the same type of level as you posted in your original post, a Starret 98. What part of "NOT a precision level" is it that you don't understand?

Sorry if I misunderstood your question.

bojniklathe - this link (if it works for you, slow for me) will take you to a catalog of Starrett's stuff, which will make it easier to identify what model number goes with what level. (You have to root around a bit.) A 98-6 is listed as 0.005 (or 10x less precise than claimed for the first one you listed.) A 199Z is listed at 0.000,5 per foot, or comparable to the first one you listed.

Machinists' Levels

I have a level labelled "made in japan" that I got from mscdirect which is speced at 0.000,1" per 10", which seems to actually be that (tricky to confirm) - it is provably much more sensitive than a 199Z lent me by a friend, which is in turn much more sensitive than any other level we have at hand.

I only use these for levelling machines, surface tables, and such.

what would that mean for starret levels, also, if I look for .0005 in/ft accuracy what would I be looking for?

In that brand, a 98 of any length is a level, where a 199 is a master precision level in the above stated accuracy

There are also Pratt & Whitney levels in this accuracy and length (15"), just not new.

Originally Posted by traditional-tools

Maybe English is not your first language, I see your from Bosnia. Or you didn't understand what JohnO had said to you.

What JohnO meant to say is that a Starret 98 is not a precision level. Your second link is the same type of level as you posted in your original post, a Starret 98. What part of "NOT a precision level" is it that you don't understand?

Sorry if I misunderstood your question.

So starret 98 is not a precision level, appreciate the info. But what I actually wanted to ask is what is a precision level anyways, I mean where does the accuracy for the PRECISION level starts?
For the time being I need a level for setting up machine tool bases, other then that I have the opportunity to order something from US so I rather have it US made, not that German or Yugoslavian made tools are not good, on the contrary, it's just that precision levels are HARD to find here, or just let's say it impossible. I can buy here(in Balkan area) the level that I posted on the top but I think that is a chinese made stuff(I'v been burned more then once so I'd prefer not to buy chinese made) unless You have rather good experience with that exact example.
As for language, I never visited a English speaking country in my life, I learned Your language here in Bosnia with Books, Internet and friends so I think I am pretty good with it considering,... on the other hand Bill seems like a very helpful guy but sometimes I dont understand his sarcasm (linguistical reasons).

Nezir

Hi bojniklathe from Bosnia.

On our side of the Atlantic the article looks a little different. Consider using the search keyword 'Rahmen-Wasserwaage', like this 250 mm2 0,02mm/1000mm unit:



Wyler is a good brand.

Beware of and avoid the 0.1mm/1000mm units.

Originally Posted by thermite

There is at least one thread on PM about all that, plus whether the base should be grooved or flat, whether 'flat' is really flat, or has a very minute curve put in by the maker, and which models are made in what manner among US, Polish, Swiss, British, French, Chinese, and Japanese levels.
...
Bill

Will do search on that, thanks.

As for Russian or Yugo made levels goes,... they are impossible to find here,... I mean impossible man, am trying it for over a year now,... and not just precision level,... any machinist level, nothing man!

Originally Posted by <jbc>

Hi bojniklathe from Bosnia.

On our side of the Atlantic the article looks a little different. Consider using the search keyword 'Rahmen-Wasserwaage', like this 250 mm2 0,02mm/1000mm unit:

Wyler is a good brand.

Beware of and avoid the 0.1mm/1000mm units.

Thank You,... Rahmenwasserwage,... isn't german a nice language,... where You can just combine simple words to get a technical term

Originally Posted by johnoder

In that brand, a 98 of any length is a level, where a 199 is a master precision level in the above stated accuracy

There are also Pratt & Whitney levels in this accuracy and length (15"), just not new.

Would love to get my hands on a level like this:
PRATT & WHITNEY SPIRIT LEVEL | eBay

but $600, that is waaaay too much! I do like Pratt and Whitney brand though,... sounds like the aero-space company.

Originally Posted by <jbc>

Hi bojniklathe from Bosnia.

On our side of the Atlantic the article looks a little different. Consider using the search keyword 'Rahmen-Wasserwaage', like this 250 mm2 0,02mm/1000mm unit:

Beware of and avoid the 0.1mm/1000mm units.

Funny price tag though,... 646 Euros!

Also,... I keep finding those ,.04mm per 1m,... seems to be a lot of those of older type,... reasonably priced as well.

Originally Posted by bojniklathe

So starret 98 is not a precision level, appreciate the info. But what I actually wanted to ask is what is a precision level anyways, I mean where does the accuracy for the PRECISION level starts?
For the time being I need a level for setting up machine tool bases, other then that I have the opportunity to order something from US so I rather have it US made, not that German or Yugoslavian made tools are not good, on the contrary, it's just that precision levels are HARD to find here, or just let's say it impossible. I can buy here(in Balkan area) the level that I posted on the top but I think that is a chinese made stuff(I'v been burned more then once so I'd prefer not to buy chinese made) unless You have rather good experience with that exact example.
As for language, I never visited a English speaking country in my life, I learned Your language here in Bosnia with Books, Internet and friends so I think I am pretty good with it considering,... on the other hand Bill seems like a very helpful guy but sometimes I dont understand his sarcasm (linguistical reasons).

Nezir

Actually it isn't (usually) sarcasm, but never mind the semantics.

For machine BASES, the Chinese level will do, though Polish ones can be had for the same money.

Length matters as well as accuracy. Levels are generally at their best when the contact points they measure are close to the ends. A 15" is handier if you have a long span than perching a shorter level atop parallels, but may simply not fit into some places you may need to work. Smaller machines for example.

The two most-common 'classes' of accuracy are indeed 10X apart, with lesser grade 'machinist precision level' used for day-to-day machine installation and work setup, and the finer grade 'master precision level' essentially a toolroom or laboratory device stored and handled with extra-extra care and used far less frequently for precision alignment or machine restoral. So seldom for most folks that it ideally would be borrowed or rented rather than owned.

Those most common as new stock run to 200mm, 300 mm, or 10", 12" inch with 15" now rare, new or legacy. Much of the current production is dual-marked in inch and metric precision.

There may be nought to be gained in the app you describe from an uber-precise level. Probable waste of time, as the concrete under the machine bases moves quite a bit with temperature changes.

Adding: And if you had not mentioned it, no one would have noticed that English was not your first language. We have plenty of 'native' speakers who don't use it as well.

Bill

Originally Posted by bojniklathe

So starret 98 is not a precision level, appreciate the info. But what I actually wanted to ask is what is a precision level anyways, I mean where does the accuracy for the PRECISION level starts?
For the time being I need a level for setting up machine tool bases, other then that I have the opportunity to order something from US so I rather have it US made, not that German or Yugoslavian made tools are not good, on the contrary, it's just that precision levels are HARD to find here, or just let's say it impossible. I can buy here(in Balkan area) the level that I posted on the top but I think that is a chinese made stuff(I'v been burned more then once so I'd prefer not to buy chinese made) unless You have rather good experience with that exact example.
As for language, I never visited a English speaking country in my life, I learned Your language here in Bosnia with Books, Internet and friends so I think I am pretty good with it considering,... on the other hand Bill seems like a very helpful guy but sometimes I dont understand his sarcasm (linguistical reasons).

Nezir

Nezir,

I commend you for learning English from a book, it's the odd slang we use here in the U.S. that makes it the most difficult for people, and often that can't be taught in a book easily. My wife speaks English as her second language, so I completely understand. This is why I mentioned to begin with, it seemed there might be some loss in the communication of what JohnO implied with his comment.

I think it would be safe to say that what makes makes a precision level is the "level of precision" (does that twist words enough?;-). The accuracy on a lesser level just doesn't compare. Whether you would need that precision is something you need to consider. As noted above, precision levels are very delicate, sometimes hard to adjust if a surface is not within a very small amount of being level. However, you will never be able to get that type of precision from a lesser level such as the Starret 98. I will put myself out on a limb here and say that a lot of machine leveling could be done with a Starret 98, so that might be an option for you. The difference between the Starret 98 and Starret 199 is .005" per foot vs. .0005" per foot.

Does this mean that if I use a Starrett 98, and level a lathe with it, turn the level end for end and it is still centered between the marks(as close as eye can judge) that the machine isn't level? Or is just not as perfectly leveled as with a Starrett 199? As long as it takes to level a lathe, even with a 98, is the extra precision often needed?

Dale Nelson

Originally Posted by swellwelder

Does this mean that if I use a Starrett 98, and level a lathe with it, turn the level end for end and it is still centered between the marks(as close as eye can judge) that the machine isn't level? Or is just not as perfectly leveled as with a Starrett 199? As long as it takes to level a lathe, even with a 98, is the extra precision often needed?

Dale Nelson

I set up my HS shop's lathes with a 98. It was a seriously time-consuming pain. Not just the level. The bed needed time to respond.

I don't want to even think about how much longer it might have taken to do the whole job with the 199 the Instructor hauled out to check my work.

There is a practical limit to how much it actually matters to any given machine and its base and the surface under that.

Stuff moves.

Bill

Originally Posted by traditional-tools

Nezir,

I commend you for learning English from a book, it's the odd slang we use here in the U.S. that makes it the most difficult for people, and often that can't be taught in a book easily. My wife speaks English as her second language, so I completely understand. This is why I mentioned to begin with, it seemed there might be some loss in the communication of what JohnO implied with his comment.

I think it would be safe to say that what makes makes a precision level is the "level of precision" (does that twist words enough?;-). The accuracy on a lesser level just doesn't compare. Whether you would need that precision is something you need to consider. As noted above, precision levels are very delicate, sometimes hard to adjust if a surface is not within a very small amount of being level. However, you will never be able to get that type of precision from a lesser level such as the Starret 98. I will put myself out on a limb here and say that a lot of machine leveling could be done with a Starret 98, so that might be an option for you. The difference between the Starret 98 and Starret 199 is .005" per foot vs. .0005" per foot.

For the first part I meant all sorts of technical books(I do not read literature, although I should, but not time for it), I started reading professional IT books back in 99 or so, which brought two new problems,... most of the English language firstly I learned was in the domain of IT, second, there was no need for other type of books in english because we have machining and mechanical engineering books in our language which were written in '60s to early '90s (till the begin of war).

About the second part, I get it,... sort of. I did search in forum about it as Bill suggested. Here:
Machinist level vs. Master precision level

The guy Joe Michaels described a nice "regular" practice pattern for leveling precision parts.

Thanks.

Nezir

Talking about "precision" in a a level is a little misdirected.

What you are really talking about is sensitivity. So in answer to Sweller's question:
a. You level a machine with a carpenter's level, which shows dead level both ways round (reverse the level) on the bed. The machine is level to the limits of that tool (say, 0.010" per foot.)
b. You put on a 0.005" per foot level, you will likely find the machine off by a small amount - so adjust it in. Now it shows level both ways with the level pointing all ways. So it is level to much finer precision (hence the term)
c. Repeat with a 0.000,1" per foot level.

Some machines (like my DMU) have manuals that spec a particular degree of levelness.

And of course, what you are doing is using level to establish straightness.

Originally Posted by bojniklathe

Here:
Machinist level vs. Master precision level

The guy Joe Michaels described a nice "regular" practice pattern for leveling precision parts.

There yah go. Real-world experience.

'Wot level do YOU use, Bill?

Uhh .. its a 'pragmatic'.

Izzat made in Prague or what?

Uh, no it sez 'Stanley' on it. Probably Bangladesh.

WTH?

Well.... on a 10EE, 'kinematic' three-point mount, turns out all you need is level enough the coolant don't run out one side of the tray onto yer trousers... and the Stanley gets it close enough to not roll a center or drill off the saddle if I lay it down for a mo'..so... 'pragmatic' it is.

;-)

Bill