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Mexican made Nicholson files I TESTED are soft skinned

gwilson

Diamond
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Location
williamsburg va
I got a box of 12 triangular Mexican made Nicholson files as a gift. They looked beautifully made,with accurate,sharp feeling teeth,and properly made,tapered tangs.

BUT,I had heard they were soft. I took a USA Nicholson made smooth mill file,and filed the front edges of the Mexican files. I was able to easily file a bevel almost 1/32" wide before I reached the fully hard core. This is well below even the GULLETS of the file teeth.

I haven't tested any other Mexican made Nicholsons,just these saw files.

The only way I can make them useful is to pack them in a pipe full of charcoal,and case harden them.

I think these files have not had their surfaces protected during the hardening process,and have decarbed. It would be absolutely hell to try to communicate these concerns to the Cooper Tool Group. They don't even reply to others I know who have tried.

If these files were tested in a hardness tester,the diamond would sink through the soft skin,and read the hardness of the core. A less than experienced toolmaker would think all was well.Possibly whoever makes them never has the need to try to use one.

Grobet files are still good,at least. Some years ago I took a chance on some "Import" files from MSC. They turned out to be English,and were fine.

This is a big disappointment,as a person used to be able to go to the local hardware store and buy a decent file. I don't think I could get through sharpening a saw blade with these soft files. Fortunately,I do have hundreds of NOS files to see me through. At times,I'm glad I'm old,the way quality has gone.
 
Isn't is frustrating to try to bring a quality control suggestion to the attention of someone these days? I have had concerns about stuff, and a useful suggestion, but you can't even let a person know about it they are so insulated.
Who the hell could be a better product commenter- I mean, we actually BOUGHT the product.
 
Move your source of manufacturing and this is what happens!

A new learning curve they are going through. Costly one at that.

Nicholson probably went through this a 100 years ago until they got it right. Once the source of manufacturing was moved, those little secrets were lost.

I deal with similar issue like this about every year or so, almost anytime a new heat treater is used or a new source of manufacturing is used. And you try to explain this to them, they don't savy.

Take a file hit the surface, .010" deep, you hit hard metal.:confused:

They still don't savy!:angry:

Ken
 
The trend in large companies seems to be keeping the phone numbers, etc. of people higher up the ladder from underlings so they cannot relay complaints. Around 1972, I dated a girl who worked for the local Hewlett Packard office. On day someone called wanting to speak directly to David Packard. The office personnel debated about it and finally contacted Mr. Packard. He told them to give the customer his phone number and when called, listened politely and dealt with the problem. Try that with HP now.

Bill
 
The trend in large companies seems to be keeping the phone numbers, etc. of people higher up the ladder from underlings so they cannot relay complaints.

Nicholson was bought by the Borg (Danaher Corporation) which then closed all their US plants last March and moved them to Mexico and Brazil. What good are complaints going to do?

Vote with your pocketbook, maybe the next MBA will think twice.

Nicholson File closing next year » Top News » CullmanTimes.com - Cullman, Alabama
October 29, 2010

The Nicholson File plant in Cullman will close next year, after more than 35 years in operation.
The Cullman facility is being shut down as part of a long-term strategic plan to keep Apex Tool Group profitable going forward

Operations from the Cullman facility will be consolidated into factories in Cali, Colombia; Tlalnepantla, Mexico; and Sorocaba, Brazil. The move is expected to be completed in April 2011, according to the memo.

In addition to the Cullman plant, locations in Monroe, North Carolina and Hicksville, Ohio are also being shuttered as part of the restructuring.

This consolidation plan follows extensive and thoughtful analysis of our work processes, operating costs, technological capabilities, and resource capacity and we are confident these changes will simplify operations and enable better service to our customers”​


Right, that's usually what happens when you outsource :skep:
 
I always like in times like these when the ex-workers of the plant go out and get some money and go into competition with their former employers. Just wondering if anyone from the old Nicholson plant has tried making files on their own yet? If I were them I would have a big about us on their website and boast that "We were the ones laid off by Nicholson to chase lower cost mfg, only to bring lower quality and higher prices!"
 
I USED to get my name stamps from Hansen. I could get through to the actual workman(foreman) who made the stamps. Last time,several years ago,we needed several new stamps. I could only speak to a rather pushy woman. When she asked "what's a serif?",I gave up on Hansen,and get my stamps from Buckeye engraving,where the owner/stamp maker answers the phone. They make great stamps in any font you name.

And,they know my font style and size since they keep a file on you. Every time I ever ordered a new stamp,it would match all the others perfectly. AND,they make them angled more bluntly for metal,or more sharply for wood,so they actually cleanly cut the wood. We used the last bunch making 18th.C. folding boxwood rules.
 
I use a fair bit of Norton aluminum oxide sandpaper. I use most of it by hand largely sanding fillets so a small difference in efficiency of the paper can make a big difference. I used to get the made in Canada which was the best. The made in US paper was good but not quite as sharp as the Canadian paper but it became harder and harder to find the Canadian paper. Then the US made paper started becoming harder to find now usually all I can find the paper made in Brazil. It is no where as good as the Canadian or American Sandpaper.
 
On contacting companies - best thing to do is not try to work your way up from the bottom, you are actually better off writing a real old fashioned letter directly to the CEO. In all likelihood they won't see it but with bigger companies they have a staff to deal directly with complaints.

Paul
 
Who is making quality files these days? I get everything from Vallorbe, but that's to be expected here. Still good quality (though if you listen to some oldtimers they aren't like they used to be).
 
We have noticed this trend

We are a Cooper tools dealer, mainly selling the Apex line of driver bits. We have always billed this as our premium bit. I had always heard that they are heat hardened, but a couple of years ago I started hearing that their new hardening process was "cryogenic hardening". I have no idea if this is bs, but since that time we have seen a reduction in quality, mostly bits stripping more than they used to. Many of my customers have complained, but decline other bits because of the Apex name. We are looking at other driver bit lines, mainly Wiha. I think the Wiha brand is excellent, but for how long?

My point was not to change the subject from files to bits, rather to say that this is an across the board problem with no end in sight. We also sell many files, from Nicholson to Simonds and Bahco. All of those seem poorly made now. Most of the Simonds files are now made in India.

It is a sad time for American manufacturing, and it doesn't appear that anything will change soon.

Mike
 
/snip/

Vote with your pocketbook, maybe the next MBA will think twice.

/snip/

The problem with that is.......

(wait for it)


typically, the people that buy what they use (little guys like gwilson, you, me, etc), buy onsey-twoseys, and we just don't matter.

By contrast, I work at XYZ multi-national big conglomerate- and the bean-counters (in another city, never even seen a file outside the manicurists') figured it was cheaper to hire in ABC Industrial Supply to man our tool crib and resell us our consumables rather than have an employee toolcrib attendant....and ABC industrial is another big conglomerate that buys files and other perishables by the truckload.....wtf do they care if the file works like it's supposed to? I'd even go so far as to say they're better off with crappy files.....we use them up faster and have to buy more.

obligatory token anecdote:
after having a US-made Nicholson that I used daily for a year and a half (7 day workweek for most of that time), I finally hit a hard spot on the lathe and shredded to teeth. Go to the toolcrib to get a new one (new 'hecho en me-he-co').....first one out of the box won't file at all. 2nd one out of the box- ditto, with the bonus of being warped 3/8" over a 6" length, 3rd one out of the box, still no love. Thank God there were still some Made in USA single-cut files in the back of the cabinet or I'd be deburring with my Leatherman now.

on edit- damned if I'll ever spend my hard-earned pesos on another Nicholson product!
 
Its plain that the outsource situation resembles Chimpanzees suddenly being gifted with a factory and a product line - from top to bottom, the mentality will operate on appearances - it looks like a file, so we must be in the file business.

When output is divorced from the intellectual and technical discipline that created the product in a viable state, you cannot expect much else.

Thank goodness for being a ripe old 72. You young whippersnappers will have to fix this absurdity that plagues the planet.
 
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Its plain that the outsource situation resembles Chimpanzees suddenly being gifted with a factory and a product line - from top to bottom, the mentality will operate on appearances - it looks like a fie, so we must be in the file business.

When output is divorced from the intellectual and technical discipline that created the product in a viable state, you cannot expect much else.

Someone needs to make an engraved placard with that quote, and put it at the entrance to all the B Schools.
 
Maybe, if it looks like a file, you could actually send a batch to a competent heat treater, and get them carburized and rehardened. Not saying it should be that way, but if you cannot find anything else.....

Mind, I hate filing stuff.....I'd rather try fine machining, grinding or belts or polishing rods if at all possible.
 
This sort of thing has gone on as long as I have been around (even longer than JO), but it seems to have taken a big upswing with the outsourcing fad. You acquire a company with a good name, sell cheap junk with that brand until people get fed up with it, then sell the brand off or drop it. It goes on within companies too, degrading a product to increase profits. I think a lot of the problem is now people who consider themselves "dynamic" think in terms of spending no more than 5 years in a company, then getting a promotion by job hopping. If the junk makes big profits on my watch, why care about the future crash because I will be gone.

Bill
 
Do you just suppose that there is a connection between this type of thing and the rise of MBA's?

On a separate note, the company I started working for in 1970, a major Fortune 500, had a general manager of the unit I was with, that told his manufacturing and engineering people that complaints were too low, that they were to reduce product cost and performance to increase complaints, and in the short term, increase profits. The company had a program to train new managers by putting them in a business unit for three years and then moving them. This guy left a trail of destruction that effectively put the business unit I was with out of business. But I guess the company did ok, they are still making turbines, light bulbs and locomotives.

Tom
 








 
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