Mounting shop made vertical head

sean64 · Dec 25, 2017

I've stalled out on ideas (information overload more like)on how to mount a vertical head I'm making fo my Centec2 horizontal mill. I dont know which way to go ,round bar or flat plate . I tried posting this earlier without success.

Sean

Billtodd · Dec 25, 2017

on most horizontal mills it mounts with the vertical spindle end at about the same height as the horizontal spindle (or a little higher to allow for longer chucks)

if you have a quill feed it might be worth adding a swivel and tilt axis

as for mounting, hang it off the oh arm support with as much iron or steel as you have
http://www.lathes.co.uk/centec/index.html
don't reinvent the wheel.

Milland · Dec 25, 2017

You're from the Scottish Highlands - don't you know there can be only one?!!

Corny movie joke aside, I want more information, such as how far from the main structure you want to mount the head, do you want the head to swivel about the horizontal axis, how you intend on driving the spindle, etc. I'd also want to see more of the head construction, and how you intend on mounting the bracket to the spindle housing, as distortion by welding or bolting could affect accuracy and bearing life.

Can we assume the two plates you show are not fixed to the spindle body yet?

Tyrone Shoelaces · Dec 25, 2017

I'm with Milland, not enough information for us to help. Have you got any drawings or are you making it up as you go along ?

Regards Tyrone.

SilveradoHauler · Dec 25, 2017

The vertical head on my little Burke is mounted on the round overarm support bar.

Easy to put on and take off. Also easy to tilt the head.

I would mount a round bar to your two dovetail slides and make up a round attachment for the head.

Below is the mill without the vertical head:

Monarchist · Dec 25, 2017

Since the design is not yet final... more ideas yet..

A chronic nuisance with heads added to horizontals - most especially when driven off the horizontal spindle - is loss of vertical axis "daylight".

Rockford addressed that challenge about a hundred years ago by providing a separate driving shaft through a hollow overarm:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockfordmillers/

U.S. Machine Tool's "Quartet" perched a separate motor atop its dovetail ram, shaft horizontal, right-angle gearbox interposed to deal with swiveling the head:

http://www.sterlingmachinery.com/media/brochures1/file/U.S.-Burke-Milling-Machines-Brochure.pdf

Pages 12 & 13. I have one of these. Note that the turret allows placing the vertical head at the opposite end of the heavy dovetail ram so it need not be removed to convert from vertical to horizontal milling. The turret is simply cranked 180 degrees to the other tram-lock pin hole. Have to tell yah, that ain't no "free lunch" as what with the clamp bolts as have to be loosened and re-tightened and the TEDIOUS hand-cranking of the turret worm, changeover is easily as much of a pain in the arse as removing the far lighter BP-style head wudda been. OTOH, it is waaay stouter than a Bee Pee, so..

Another possibility is illustrated with the Model 333 Horizontal, pages 8 & 9. Here, the ram casting is modified to provide for an optional end-mount for an independently powered vertical head, Rusnok/Bridgeport'ish style.

Guess it all comes down to what do you need out of it, and "how would you LIKE to do this?"

sean64 · Dec 25, 2017

The mounting plates for the spindle have both been machined to the same dimensions .I'm not keen on welding the plates to the spindle (warpage) ,I was planing large pointed grub screws positioned at the 4 narrowest point on the plates .The spindle will have dimples drilled to receive the grub screws .I'm also going to machine some spacers that the threaded rod will go through for the front . The rear threaded rod will go through a 1 1/4" steel block trapped between the two plates .

I'm not the best at describing what I'm doing . I've also thought about using the plates to clamp the spindle by using a slitting saw and drilling and threading or using a long bolt on the front .

Sean

Monarchist · Dec 25, 2017

sean64 said:
I've also thought about using the plates to clamp the spindle by using a slitting saw and drilling and threading or using a long bolt on the front .

Sean

My particular "Quartet" was already made into a "Sextet" combo mill by Abom79, His Dad, Grandad, or perhaps the PO they had bought it from, I know not which.

What was done was actually a low risk, minimally intrusive modification. A clearance, not high-precision, hole was burned into a slab of steel plate, its vertical edges dovetailed, holes drilled and tapped to face-bolt it AROUND the horizontal spindle.

What made it "easy" is that the surface it is mounted to is already flat and in-plane, not a curved casting surface.

In that position, it interferes with nada, so remains in place all the time.

If/as/when need be, a K&T vertical slotter head is attached with the dovetails and driven from an adaptor to the 40-taper, just as it would have been driven if on a K&T mill.

OR

A swiveling K&T Universal all-angle head is installed, same dovetails, similar drive off the 40-taper, just as it wudda been driven on its usual K&T horizontal "mothership".

If you can "permanently" install a similar dovetail-edge plate on your mill in a similar manner, there isn't much limit on stuff you can use it to anchor.

Whether driven from the spindle or powered some other way, it is already and always in proper alignment to the knee's goodies as well as the spindle. My "add ons" only need hand-adjusted vertically so their driving adapters have proper gear spacing. Even that would need but a dowel-pin or shoulder-bolt to nail-down.

2CW

Milland · Dec 25, 2017

Whatever you do, do not use pointy screws to fix the spindle to the plates - you're going to introduce distortion that will compromise the cylinder roundness, and so the bearings. That will cause increased wear and less accuracy. A split mount is usually safe, but you still have to go from the two plates to a surface that you can actually attach to the mill.

And we still don't know how you're powering the spindle (unless I missed it). This can have a great effect on what the optimal mounting method will be. So please, more info on this aspect.

randyc · Dec 25, 2017

Dunno if this is much help, the little bit that I can see of your spindle may not allow the method. This is the only photo I have of the vertical head installed on my small Lietz. (In the photo the head was rotated for visual convenience and to recover the lost daylight that Monarchist pointed out.)

1-P1010883 (2017_06_28 04_34_33 UTC).jpg

The head is flanged at the driven end and attached to the column with four studs/tee-nuts that ride in a circular tee slot around the spindle. The slots are milled into a heavy round plate bolted to the column. In this case, the plate also contains one of the three internal spindle bearings.

However there's no reason that it could not be an external removable part (with tee slots) that bolts to the column.

The outboard side of the head is secured to the dovetailed overarm by clamping a turned boss on the head into the slotted arbor bearing bore (arbor bearing removed). The head is very rigid but, unhappily, it is quill-less.

You have a sweet little mill by the way !

sean64 · Dec 26, 2017

Thanks ,It's a great little mill I saved it from certain death

about 6 months ago it had been sitting outside for about a year ,ended up offering £50 and got it .There are vertical heads out there for silly money which I'm not prepared to pay . I'm trying to build one to see if I can actually manage it . Nothing fancy ,no quils . Only adjustment I'm planning will be along Z axis whilst mounted in the original overarm dovetails .I did toy with the idea of mounting it onto the end of the overarm at one point ,I doubt it will be rigid enough .

Here is a link of the before refurb ....

Flickr: Page Not Found

Sean

sean64 · Dec 27, 2017

Monarchist said:
My particular "Quartet" was already made into a "Sextet" combo mill by Abom79, His Dad, Grandad, or perhaps the PO they had bought it from, I know not which.

What was done was actually a low risk, minimally intrusive modification. A clearance, not high-precision, hole was burned into a slab of steel plate, its vertical edges dovetailed, holes drilled and tapped to face-bolt it AROUND the horizontal spindle.

What made it "easy" is that the surface it is mounted to is already flat and in-plane, not a curved casting surface.

In that position, it interferes with nada, so remains in place all the time.

If/as/when need be, a K&T vertical slotter head is attached with the dovetails and driven from an adaptor to the 40-taper, just as it would have been driven if on a K&T mill.

OR

A swiveling K&T Universal all-angle head is installed, same dovetails, similar drive off the 40-taper, just as it wudda been driven on its usual K&T horizontal "mothership".

If you can "permanently" install a similar dovetail-edge plate on your mill in a similar manner, there isn't much limit on stuff you can use it to anchor.

Whether driven from the spindle or powered some other way, it is already and always in proper alignment to the knee's goodies as well as the spindle. My "add ons" only need hand-adjusted vertically so their driving adapters have proper gear spacing. Even that would need but a dowel-pin or shoulder-bolt to nail-down.

2CW[/QUOTE

If I understood this reply I would comment on ,I don't so I can''t.... wait ,I've read it for a 5th time , I don't think you realise the size of the Centec 2 ,The head on Adam's K&T would be about the same same size (maybe a bit smaller )

sean

Monarchist · Dec 27, 2017

sean64 said:
size of the Centec 2

Comparable to my Burke #4. But the size is not relevant, the concept "scales".

I could add exactly the same sort of dovetailed plate to the Burke as the Quartet, just smaller.

I could make it a disc instead of a rectangle. Dovetail cut edge all 'round, and it would resemble some mounts for compound rests. Or swivel vise bases.
Then I could rotate the attached device.

Whatever other "thing" you want to attach mates to that plate. Standardized mount, IOW.

Even if the "standard" is uniquely your own - applied to one machine only - fabricating one or more attachments becomes easier.

As to the reading comprehension issue? Could be worse.

There's You Tube vid out there on a Centec 2 with some poor sod struggling hard to SPEAK English with his tongue all the while bungee-corded to the back side of his tonsils!

No idea how he manages to eat...

randyc · Dec 27, 2017

Monarchist said:
...I could make it a disc instead of a rectangle. Dovetail cut edge all 'round, and it would resemble some mounts for compound rests. Or swivel vise bases.
Then I could rotate the attached device....

That - is - brilliant !

Everything done on the lathe except mounting holes - much simpler than my thought about the round plate with a tee-slot -

Monarchist · Dec 27, 2017

randyc said:
That - is - brilliant !

Everything done on the lathe except mounting holes - much simpler than my thought about the round plate with a tee-slot -

Not in Scots Gael, though, and not new with me.

Look again at that Rockford of a hundred years ago:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockfordmillers/

Or how a shaper tool compound attaches. Lots of similar examples, factory-built.

randyc · Dec 27, 2017

Didn't mean to imply that the concept was unique, in fact in many mechanisms it's ubiquitous (e.g. devices that Monarchist mentioned and more). For this particular application, however, the configuration seems just about the simplest effective way to get from there to here, hence my comment

)

P.S. a photo is attached to my post that I don't know how to remove - sorry, it has no application to the topic.

P.P.S. I can't see a dovetail configuration in the Rockford mill, looks more like the head is pivoting on a spigot fit and clamped. A very effective means of mounting also.

sean64 · Dec 27, 2017

Monarchist said:
Comparable to my Burke #4. But the size is not relevant, the concept "scales".

I could add exactly the same sort of dovetailed plate to the Burke as the Quartet, just smaller.

I could make it a disc instead of a rectangle. Dovetail cut edge all 'round, and it would resemble some mounts for compound rests. Or swivel vise bases.
Then I could rotate the attached device.

Whatever other "thing" you want to attach mates to that plate. Standardized mount, IOW.

Even if the "standard" is uniquely your own - applied to one machine only - fabricating one or more attachments becomes easier.

As to the reading comprehension issue? Could be worse.

There's You Tube vid out there on a Centec 2 with some poor sod struggling hard to SPEAK English with his tongue all the while bungee-corded to the back side of his tonsils!

No idea how he manages to eat...

Which video are you referring to .

sean

Monarchist · Dec 28, 2017

randyc said:
P.P.S. I can't see a dovetail configuration in the Rockford mill, looks more like the head is pivoting on a spigot fit and clamped. A very effective means of mounting also.

Correct - no dovetail on the Rockford.

Spigot mount needs through-bolted, probably with adjusting slots. That's fine if it was planned and provided for in advance.

The dovetail lets one work the edge so only its OWN attach bolts need a place to live. That can be sorted but the one time - at initial installation. No change to the plate for any of many "goodies" mounted thereafter.

Better "future proofing" IOW.

randyc · Dec 28, 2017

Monarchist said:
....The dovetail lets one work the edge so only its OWN attach bolts need a place to live. That can be sorted but the one time - at initial installation. No change to the plate for any of many "goodies" mounted thereafter.

Better "future proofing" IOW.

Exactly and also simple to make -

sean64 · Dec 29, 2017

Milland said:
You're from the Scottish Highlands - don't you know there can be only one?!!

Corny movie joke aside, I want more information, such as how far from the main structure you want to mount the head, do you want the head to swivel about the horizontal axis, how you intend on driving the spindle, etc. I'd also want to see more of the head construction, and how you intend on mounting the bracket to the spindle housing, as distortion by welding or bolting could affect accuracy and bearing life.

Can we assume the two plates you show are not fixed to the spindle body yet?

Have a wee look at these ,managed to do a bit on it today ,-8 C this morning didn't help the cause by a long way :cryin:

.
Flickr: Page Not Found

,I'm planning using the pulley that's used for the original head on the rear of the mill . Two pulleys will be mounted directly above the rear pulley ,the belt will come up and over the two pulleys along onto the vertical head (in theory

) Doing it this way I Know the existing gearing on the main spindle .Monarchist has planted a seed into my head regarding a round dovetail mount similar to that of a swivel vice . I've been doing some rough sketches to further plant the idea into my head .

Sean

Mounting shop made vertical head

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