Thread: Myford vs. Wabeco = EMCO

Did I do right, gents?

Many of you will recall that one month ago I solicited opinions on the relative merits of a Myford Super 7 versus a Wabeco D6000. I had limited my choice to those two lathes because of a 48" length limit. Opinions were quite varied on the merits of a Myford with a few offering support of the Wabeco.

As an alternative, several posters suggested that the performance of a Maximat Super 11 was so superior to a Myford that I knock down a wall, concrete or otherwise, in order to accommodate the Emco. At the time, that didn’t seem realistic or possible to me because I thought the Super 11 was something like 60" in length. However, when a like-new CD version showed up for sale, I found out from the owner that the actual length is 51".

Even so, 51" was still too long to place on (or within) my bench, so I had to rethink my entire shop area. Luckily, I didn't have to knock out a wall, but I did have to do a major rearrangement, including moving a paint spray booth, tearing down storage shelving, and replacing them with different, more compact units. In some ways, my workshop will not be as convenient to use, but in other ways (such as having a real lathe!) it will be far more convenient.

Now for a question: aside from the bed, what parts are likely to wear on a lathe like this? Should I order gibs and nuts for the carriage, cross-slide, and top-slide, or is that max-overkill? EMCO says that half-nuts for the carriage are no longer available; given that I will do some threading on this lathe, but only in limited way, is that a matter for real concern?

This lathe will never see anything like production conditions, but I want it to last until they pat me in the face with a shovel.

BTW, if someone would explain why the "manage attachments" button is not working, I will try to post pictures of my new beauty.

If it is anything like the EMCO I used almost daily for 15 years You will never wear it out. I wouldn't worry about the half nuts, they would really have to be toast to bother with.....

What are you going to be using the lathe for?

tim

The impression comes through this EMCO will have light duty. If that's the case, keep it clean, well lubricated, free from corrosion, don't crash it, maintain and replace the wipers as needed and your grandchildren will still have a good lathe to use.

So... order and keep a set of wipers on hand. Don't neglect cleanliness or lubrication. Don't abuse it and it will last so long you might get tired of it.

AlcoSteam,

Building S scale New York Central Hudsons! Machining driver tires, driver centers, axles and so forth. Maybe one day, I will build a live steam 1 1/2" Hudson. However, right now, there is a real need for drivers in my scale, so I may enter into very light production.

Originally Posted by Littleleroy38

Did I do right, gents?

Many of you will recall that one month ago I solicited opinions on the relative merits of a Myford Super 7 versus a Wabeco D6000. I had limited my choice to those two lathes because of a 48" length limit. Opinions were quite varied on the merits of a Myford with a few offering support of the Wabeco.

As an alternative, several posters suggested that the performance of a Maximat Super 11 was so superior to a Myford that I knock down a wall, concrete or otherwise, in order to accommodate the Emco. At the time, that didn’t seem realistic or possible to me because I thought the Super 11 was something like 60" in length. However, when a like-new CD version showed up for sale, I found out from the owner that the actual length is 51".

Even so, 51" was still too long to place on (or within) my bench, so I had to rethink my entire shop area. Luckily, I didn't have to knock out a wall, but I did have to do a major rearrangement, including moving a paint spray booth, tearing down storage shelving, and replacing them with different, more compact units. In some ways, my workshop will not be as convenient to use, but in other ways (such as having a real lathe!) it will be far more convenient.

Now for a question: aside from the bed, what parts are likely to wear on a lathe like this? Should I order gibs and nuts for the carriage, cross-slide, and top-slide, or is that max-overkill? EMCO says that half-nuts for the carriage are no longer available; given that I will do some threading on this lathe, but only in limited way, is that a matter for real concern?

This lathe will never see anything like production conditions, but I want it to last until they pat me in the face with a shovel.

BTW, if someone would explain why the "manage attachments" button is not working, I will try to post pictures of my new beauty.

You did good IMO. I've got one that's in perfect condition.

Which model? Maximat 11, OK, but metric or Imperial, DIN spindle nose with 25mm HS or D1-4 camlock and 35mm spindle bore? Mine is metric and DIN spindle.

There used to be full dimensions of the DIN spindle nose on www.lathes.co.uk. IIRC it's basically the same as D1-3 except for studs instead of pins and the stud diameter is slightly different. Useful information if you want to mount new chucks and yours isn't the D1-4 model.

Parts - if the machine is in good shape and you keep it that way with proper lube etc, you won't wear it out in your lifetime. It is very, very unlikely that the half nuts are worn or damaged to needing replacement so don't sweat it. I wouldn't bother buying gibs etc for the same reason. The lead screw has a dog clutch so it only turns when you need to cut threads, not all the time. The feed screw has an overload clutch to help protect expensive bits if you run a tool etc into the chuck. Can't tell you how effective it is because I've never needed to test it. I *think* you can also use it to stop the feed if you've clamped a hard stop to the bed, but I've never tried. Seems a bit brutal to me.

I have the original owners manual, the wide range gear set, the fixed & travelling steady plus some other accessories. If you need some of the manual copied, let me know - as long as you're not in a hurry, because the lathe is in my workshop in Sydney and I won't be back there until November, I expect. There's a very useful thread chart in the manual including the uncommon pitches and the gear trains for module pitches.

FWIW I saw a Maximat V13 sell at auction last week. First one I've ever had my hands on. Nice machine, however I was surprised to see that it was D1-4 spindle, I sort of expected it to be a D1-6.

I think you'll enjoy the Emco. I like my Colchester Chipmaster better but mainly due to the variable speed drive and instant reverse (3 phase motor).

PDW

I had an Emco Maximat V10 for a short time around 25 years ago. It had plastic tumbler gears that broke quickly. Back then, I was able to buy replacement parts easily.

So, if the 11 has plastic gears, I would advise trying to get spares.

Larry

The only way I can post pictures is to make the post,put it up for viewing,then EDIT the post and then when editing you can post attachments. Seems peculiar to me,but another member told me to do it,and it works.

Originally Posted by L Vanice

I had an Emco Maximat V10 for a short time around 25 years ago. It had plastic tumbler gears that broke quickly. Back then, I was able to buy replacement parts easily.

So, if the 11 has plastic gears, I would advise trying to get spares.

Larry

No, mine has all metal gears and a serpentine belt, IIRC, from the motor to the spindle. I don't think mine even has tumbler gears (if we're referring to gears that reverse the feed/thread direction) as reverse is done via the motor.

PDW

I recently did some repairs to a V13. I was told by the manufacturer that they no longer support this machine. I made the parts I needed(rack pinion and some bushings). The hex in the I.D. of the worm that is driven by the hex feed rod is almost worn completly out. This will not be and easy part to make. Anybody know where I can get one? I did make an extra rack pinion if someone needs one.
TED
latheman2@aol.com

This machine has imperial dials and a D1-4 camlock. I assume it's a 35m spindle. It's in like-new condition. I don't think the previous owner ever turned steel on it. Judging by the few chips around, it looks like he limited himself to brass and aluminum.

I do need to get a four-jaw independent chuck for it. Rohm makes an 8", but is there any reason to go for a 6" other than less weight? I will be doing lots of small stuff, but want eventually to have the capacity to go larger. However, I can't see buying two four-jaw chucks at Rohm, or even Bison, prices.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that this is a three-phase machine with a phase converter, which is the red box hanging off the bench to the right of the tail stock. The previous owner told me that he had ordered a single phase machine, and EMCO sent him three phase instead. Apparently, they wanted to solve the problem by having him ship it back, which he refused to do naturally. Ultimately, they just sent him the box.

Is this lathe made in Austria or China? The V10 I had was Austrian, but it was made in the 1970's and this Super 11 looks very new.

That tool holder is a design I consider English, like that seen on the Myford 7 lathes and the Maximat V10 I once owned. It cries out for a quick change tool post. I have two English Dickson QC tool posts, size S00 that mount on the vertical stud in that type of compound on the Myford or V10. One I bought from a London dealer for Myford lathes back in 1978 and the other I saved when I sold my V10. I put a Myford tool clamp on the V10 when I sold it. I used the Dicksons on my Hardinge 9" lathes before I switched over to Hardinge QC posts. I don't know if the Super 11 takes that size S00 QC or a bigger one. I am very fond of the Swiss 40 position QC's and use a size A on my Clausing 12 x 36, so it would probably fit your Super 11.

Larry

I've posted a photo of the builder's plate below. In my understanding, the corporate history of EMCO is complex with the company splitting and one part taking over the hobby lathe side of the business (and moving production to China) and eventually going out of business, and the other side concentrating on industrial machines.

I agree the tool post begs to be converted to a quick change system. I think the AXA size is recommended by Blue Ridge Machinery, which deals in EMCO.

That looks like a nice machine. I've love to find one that size and in that condition. What is the bore size through the spindle?

It appears to have a seperate hex drive rod for the power cross and long feed. You'll need to do a LOT of threading to wear out the half nuts. They are usually repairable by soldering or epoxying in inserts after boring out the worn threads if it ever comes to that.

Better put some mats down or you'll be picking chips out of the carpet forever!
Greg

Sweet!

Got a little Emco C5 I use for my hobby stuff, put Class 7 spindle bearings in it and have it mounted on a ground steel plate. Wish I had a bigger machine like yours from time to time...

If you have a set of Armstrong type tool bit holders about the place an effective and economical substitute for a QC system is to use the Armstrong holders in block type tool posts and simply change out the tool bits as needed. Obviously you need a good centre height gauge. Optical type is easily made and would work well on this machine. If you arrange some form of angle location and switch blocks with permanently mounted tools the repeatability is similar to that achieved with a good QC system. Tool post blocks are easily bolted up from stock materials as required rather than having to be purchased or tools tediously swopped around the limited number of holders in stock. Bits are easy to grind and sufficiently economical to make a full set of shapes and angles for different materials affordable.

Clive

LittleLeroy read and answer your PM's

tim

Originally Posted by Clive603

If you have a set of Armstrong type tool bit holders about the place an effective and economical substitute for a QC system is to use the Armstrong holders in block type tool posts and simply change out the tool bits as needed. Obviously you need a good centre height gauge. Optical type is easily made and would work well on this machine. If you arrange some form of angle location and switch blocks with permanently mounted tools the repeatability is similar to that achieved with a good QC system. Tool post blocks are easily bolted up from stock materials as required rather than having to be purchased or tools tediously swopped around the limited number of holders in stock. Bits are easy to grind and sufficiently economical to make a full set of shapes and angles for different materials affordable.

Clive

I'm entirely with Clive on this. A QC system doesn't work near as well on a small lathe, as it doesn't scale down in proportion with the collapsing space available for it. For instance, on small lathes, it's just not realistic to have the tailstock body at arms length from the work as you would often have to in order to clear bulky toolposts and idle tool stations.

If you put some thought into the holders you buy and make, (and follow Clive's suggestion, and make the classiest tool height gauge you can devise - PM me if you want one take on this) you can be ahead of the game.

I have had both QC and 4 tool turrets for my smallest lathes (Myfords) and I got rid of them both and rationalised my tools and holders for hot-swappability (I use a lot of Ifanger tooling, as well as some Armstrong type holders. The IFanger stuff really is fantastic, but you wouldn't probably want to pay new prices)

The frustrations of the clutter, and everything getting in the way of everything else have pretty much disappeared since I changed tack on this.

One thing: it pays to have shop air on line in some form if you're swapping Armstrong or similar holders (actually it's almost a requirement for QC holders also). If you regulate it down to 40 psi and are careful where you aim it, you wont get into nasty problems with chips blowing under wipers. (And you'll save air)

As far as making sure the machine lasts:

1) Abrasive wear is what wears out most home shop machines long before genuine load-induced wear starts to be apparent. Cover the machine, AND wipe the ways before each session if you want it to see you out
2) Swap out/ hone/ regrind tooling as soon as it starts to not cut quite so well unless you're dealing with something really easily machined.
3) Try to thing of ways to make interrupted cuts easier: like grinding off the worst of the corners on square stock, taking deep cuts on light feed to get the tooltip into ininterrupted territory, etc.
4) Work on the lube situation, if necessary modify the machine and the oiling hardware, so it's an easy, pleasant routine to keep every wearing surface moist for all eternity.

As you're starting with a new looking machine, that makes it easier to take good care of it. Like a cute kitten vs a mangy moggie. Keep it looking new and you'll keep feeling good about keeping dirty swarf off it, and glistening oil on.

Check out Frank Ford's website at Frets.com for some ideas on using neoprene to keep machine ways clean. This is important if you machine cast iron or do any toolpost grinding.

Frank's website is so inspirational, you're probably already familiar with it.

The optical centre height gauge is not only classy but a doddle to make. It consists of a strip of perspex, thick enough to be stiff, having lines scribed on both sides to indicate centre height which is held upright by a suitable block at the bottom. A scrap of mirror at nominal 45° mounted on the back allows you easily look through the gauge at the tool tip. The two lines eliminate parallax error. To use set the gauge so that the mirror and tool tip are on opposite sides, look down onto the mirror at an angle such that the scribed lines on front and back merge into a single line then adjust the tip height until the it aligns with the line.

About inch half to two inch half wide by quarter or, preferably, a bit more thick will do just fine for the upright. Steel or cast iron off-cut for the base say inch thick and square bottomed with sides around the same length as the upright is wide will work fine. But use what you have remembering to relieve the centre so that it slides on a rim about 1/4 wide, not forgetting a nick or air hole leading into the centre so it doesn't stick down if you make it real accurate and sit it on a similarly accurate surface. Nice sharp centre will do the lines just fine. Don't be tempted to use that white elephant pot magnet base you've had hanging around in the "optimistic" drawer for mumble mumble years. It will work OK when done but makes scribing the lines a pig. Use the centre to get the mirror just so. Stick on mirror film is as good as glass here without the fracture risk. Clearly it will work even if slung together from odd stuff with everything except the flat base slantidecular but best to make it as well as you are able or the continual abuse of your aesthetic sensibilities will drive you nuts.

Concerning the Armstrong holder QC alternative don't forget that the idea is that the holder stays mounted pretty much permanently, only the bit changes. Probably a good idea to put a shim 1/8 or so thick under the holder so that the bit can be kept tucked in tight for normal work but removing the shim lets you extend it by 1/2 inch or so when you need to reach past stuff on a complex job. For all normal OD turning the tool holder bent to the right is used, the left hand bent one does facing. The straight one doesn't get much use, sometimes handy when tucked up tight against the tail stock. Make the block asymmetric to minimise interference from the tail stock and arrange things so the tool tip overhang from the end of the top slide is minimised. Keeping the top slide angles at 30° or so "ready for threading" improves support here. Direct mount the parting blades in a block too. By their very nature QC systems tend to create tool overhang which really doesn't help.

Clive

This lathe is replacing a Sherline, which is like moving from a balsa wood glider to an F-16. So I qualify as a noob. Therefore, some of what you are describing to me is a bit over my head. That said, what I am starting with in terms of tooling is a 5/8" insert tool holder (Sandvik) and a homemade (by the PO) parting tool holder. I don't have any Armstrong tool holders, etc. If I understand what you and Clive are saying correctly, you think that an AXA-sized QC would not work as well as a set of Armstrong tool holders held in a block. However, I am unclear about what you mean by blocks. Would these be things I make myself, or are they an over-the-counter item?

Re lubrication: should I grease the rack and pinion for the carriage, or will that only attract and embed chips?

What about the change gears? Leave them dry or grease them?

I do have shop air and can regulate it down well below 40 psi.