OT: dishwasher pump maybe failing? Upper bars no spray

viper · Jan 20, 2011

Probably a little OT for this forum but I know we have a large spectrum here. Anywho, Frigidaire dishwasher. Wife is ready to throw heavy objects at it and test her new hammer on it. I checked it out and verified that the screening in the drain area is good to go but the upper spray bars are NOT moving. I know they are free as a bird so they are not getting water pressure. The mid bar is getting at least some water but the very top one in the roof never moves.

The bottom spray head runs great. I am thinking there might be a separate lift pump to get water to the top racks. Anyone seen this? I am going to guess the two top spray bars are in series. I plugged the middle bar to see if I can get the top one to move but nada... Nothing happening.

Would be great if I could find a service manual online for this thing. Is only 1yr old

Rudd · Jan 20, 2011

Can't help you directly, but I've found several times if you type (google) the make & model number in with a one or two word description of the problem, there are several appliance parts places online that have .pdf's of exploded views at least. Usually there's a list of people getting questions answered that includes your problem. D**m things are not cheap to replace.
It's got me out of a couple jams.

viper · Jan 20, 2011

Thanks. That was actually a big help just to look at the fiche for it. I determined that there is only one pump and that clued me in immediately that there was not a pump issue, there was a blockage or lack of flow. I found some type of check ball on the fiche and knew immediately I should go there. I pulled the little housing over it in about 30 seconds and it sure looked that that ball probably was only there to someone restrict flow to the upper racks to boost pressure to the bottom rack.

I just pulled the think all the way out for now. I certainly have flow to the upper racks and I am running a test right now. At least I have found the reason for the dirty dishes and what is causing it. i might have to do some mods and put the ball back in but for now, I am leaving it. If it works like this, I will get some tonight!!!

mm58 · Jan 20, 2011

viper said:
... Is only 1yr old

I'm assuming the warranty just ran out?

viper · Jan 20, 2011

yep. I learned that this ball valve is actually a HUGE design flaw and that ball is supposed to mystically block either the top bars or the bottom, based on some creative on-off pump timings. I think this is a perfect example of a rookie engineer trying to "think outside the box". "Oh, boss, my design only costs 5 cents for a ball.". "OK, let's use your idea". The right choice might have cost 50 cents.....

JoeE. · Jan 21, 2011

viper said:
If it works like this, I will get some tonight!!!

If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy, right?

The whole world revolves around "some", don't it?

gvasale · Jan 21, 2011

Having things like this occurr in the past, I have found there was some small obstruction. A grapefruit or orange seed, a bit of spaghetti or something. In my case, removal of the offending spray arm and a shakedown, sometimes slightly more than a gentle rap on a countertop and then a rinse through the openings has provided success. Even though dishwasher makers say there is no need to rinse dishes first, it can go a long was to circumvent this issue.

duckman · Jan 21, 2011

I was ready to junk my very expensive washer when the dishes were not coming out clean offered to take it to my appliance dealer and they said they only do house calls I asked and was told its $85.00 per hour just to show up, no way. Brought it out into the driveway and started to disassemble it trays, spray bars, then laid it on its front and started to remove the pump assembly and found a piece of broken water glass blocking the suction side of the pump, cleaned out any thing else that I found in there, reassembled it, reinstalled, fired it up and it was like new again, all told it took me a total of 2 hours from start to finish.

viper · Jan 21, 2011

In researching my washer, I found that this check ball thing is actually one of the worst f*(*ing designs on the planet!!! I mean, WTF??? They actually pause the pump and if timed JUST right, the ball will switch positions and allow flow to the upper racks. Quest what happens if it does not work quite right??? Bottom line is removing the ball decreases pressure because the pump system was not designed to run all the spray bars at once so I am not looking at a design to simply switch back and forth that does not rely on any pump timing.

There is really no way to electrically switch this deal so I am scratching a bit on this. What a POS. You always learn crap like this AFTER you buy.... I know to stay away from Frigidaire now....

mark thomas · Jan 21, 2011

What do you think is causing it not to work?

The ball valve does seem a bit hokey, but on the other hand, if it did work, it might be "elegant" instead. Extremely simple, little to wear or break.

I have a new medium/high-end DW, and it leaves plenty to be desired. Amongst other nuisances, it requires frequent (every couple weeks) cleaning of the upper arm because the holes get blocked, even though we strive to avoid leaving food on the dishes.

Ries · Jan 21, 2011

Bosch.

I wont buy any angle grinders but Bosch, and I wont buy any dishwasher but Bosch.

Quiet, smart (if the kid takes a 30 minute shower and uses up all the hot water, the dishwasher figgers this out, and adjusts its cycle time til there is more hot water) and, for the last ten years or so, no problems.

In our house, I have always washed all the dishes- the wifey is better at making money than getting things clean, I just let her do that, instead- and the Bosch is totally the bomb.

gvasale · Jan 21, 2011

My current one is Siemens. Has a few useful features, but I have had to clean the spray arms on it too. Even had a recall where the controller was replaced @n/c. Thank goodness.
Had a Frigidaire, but that one sparked out when I was standing in front of it. They did send me a new controller & harness, but it was replaced. Nice thing about the Siemens is the tank etc. is stainless steel.

chuckey · Jan 21, 2011

I had a similar problem on a 30 year old Miele . On stripping it down, found the rotary pump had enormous clearances inside it (as designed), you could have got a 1/4" ball right through it. Problem was a fine mesh filter within the water input hose connector, cleaned it out and Voila!, SWMBO now talking to me.
Frank

biometrics · Jan 21, 2011

I learned a very valuable lesson with an 11 year old dishwasher that was starting to not get things clean. I started with disassembly and cleaned out most of the soap scum I could find... then I had a friend mention that the problem could easily be compounded by hard water that contributes to the soap scum. I did some Google research and found that white vinegar run in the dishwasher will remove the scum...

I went to walmart and bought 2 gallons of white vinegar (generic label) and started running the empty dishwasher without soap, and about a quart of vinegar on the hottest and longest cycle. I would just turn it on as we went to bed and then start it again as we left for work with a new load of vinegar. The difference in the internal appearance was dramatic after just two washes, and contnued to improve. For the forth and fifth cycle, I put in all the glassware that was so badly hard water stained. After the fifth cycle, all my glassware looked like we had just purchased it... it sparkled. I thought we were going to have to throw them away because we couldn't even get them clean by hand washing them.

I added a quart of vinegar to each washload after that until it was all gone... the dishwasher is performing like a new one... total investment... some hot water and $4 worth of vinegar. Try it, you will like it.

Mark Rand · Jan 21, 2011

Ries said:
Bosch.

I wont buy any angle grinders but Bosch, and I wont buy any dishwasher but Bosch.

In our house, I have always washed all the dishes- the wifey is better at making money than getting things clean, I just let her do that, instead- and the Bosch is totally the bomb.

Where do I get one like that? I've already got all the Bosch stuff...

gmatov · Jan 21, 2011

My daughter also has a Bosch, and 6 or 8 months ago had to have it serviced for the same as the OP.

Tech did a good cleaning. Upper spay arms were plugged from, he said, using too much cleaning compound, I can't call it soap.

When I drop in, (daily), I insist on rinsing the dishes well. She says that is what dishwashers do, WE don't DO that.

I think you have to. Can't tell you how often I have picked up a plate or utensil in a home that uses a DW and there are blotches of cooked on food, particularly from a pasta dish. The cheese cooks onto the forks and plates.

I have used the one they bought for my house when they lived with me till their new house was finished once. Container full of spatulas, ladles, whisks, behind the corner sink. Hell, throw them in the DW. They came out with all kinds of "soap" crud on them. Had to wash them again, by hand.

I washed dishes for about 400 Marines, close to 50 years ago, in a sink full of hot soapy water. All clean. Later, on KP, again, washed dishes on my boat, Navy, this time, crew of 65. All in hot soapy water, then ran them through what could only be called a "sterilizer". My dishes were clean.

10 minutes at the sink full of hot water seems to me to be better than a 500 buck DW to wash a dozen or so plates, utensils and pots or pans. Unless you prescrub it, no way you will clean a roasting pan in a DW, anyway.
I don't like them.

But then, I am getting old.

Cheers,

George

oldbrock · Jan 21, 2011

gmatov, it sounds like you are using a powder type of DW detergent. Switch to liquid and that part of your problem is solved. Let them dry themselves, when the machine quits open the door a little and let the steam out.

JoeE. · Jan 22, 2011

All I can add to this is mention that you can't use powdered laundry soap in a dishwasher. Long time ago I came across a free portable dishwasher. Hauled it home and got it working. It was a novelty for me- a batchelor.

My girlfriend tells me I have to buy dishwasher detergent. I ain't buying none of that high dollar (I thought) stuff. I am gonna use Tide laundry soap, which I have a big box of out on the back porch.

I am here to tell you that she was right. I never seen so much foam.......

gvasale · Jan 22, 2011

Liquid diswashing agents: Palmolive, Ajax, Octagon and the like which are meant to be used in a dishpan or just the sink can be just as much fun (unending bubbles) when used in a dishwasher.

gmatov · Jan 22, 2011

oldbrock,

No, actually, she uses the gel type. I think she was using a dispenser receptacle full rather than filling "to the line". IF there IS one. Or maybe the cap is the measure.

Whatever.

Cheers,

George

OT: dishwasher pump maybe failing? Upper bars no spray

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