O/T - Acetylene regulator for LPG (propane)?

Terry Keeley · Jan 6, 2018

I have a Victor ESS3-15-510 regulator and want to run it on a 20 lb. propane tank. I'm seeing it's not a problem as long as you have T-grade hose and of course the right tip (I'm looking at an MFN10 heating nozzle).

I want to run it at 20 psi, the reg. goes to 30 but there's a red line after 15 psi as that's the max for acetylene. Any problem running into the red at 20 psi with propane?

DDoug · Jan 6, 2018

I have changed the input fittings on a couple of the older Airco 2 stage regulators to run on propane.

I have not a problem as of yet, but ask why are you running the fuel gas at such a high pressure ?

I do have a concern that the regulators diaphragm may
not be compatible with propane.

Bobw · Jan 6, 2018

I've run propane up over 50psi.. On a welding regulator made for "fuel gasses"..

The only problem I think you would run into is the BS valve they put in the 20 and
40 lb tanks now.. I know they suck, but I'm not sure how they deal with pressure out.

Terry Keeley · Jan 6, 2018

I need the heating capacity to melt some stainless steel.

Have a small (#4) heating nozzle that came with my "Performer" kit, it can put out about 29K btu/hr on acetylene but that clearly exceeds the 1/7 tank rule for my small 60 cuft tank.

A #8 tip on propane can put out 87K btu/hr at 15 psi with no limit on the withdrawal rate, but a #10 tip can make almost 200K btu/hr at 20 psi.

I know the regulator can go to 20 psi but is the red marking after 15 just cause it's made for acetylene?

Guys on the welding forums say all the internal part numbers are the same on Victor LPG and acetylene regs.

Monarchist · Jan 6, 2018

Terry Keeley said:
I need the heating capacity to melt some stainless steel.

Have a small (#4) heating nozzle that came with my "Performer" kit, it can put out about 29K btu/hr on acetylene but that clearly exceeds the 1/7 tank rule for my small 60 cuft tank.

A #8 tip on propane can put out 87K btu/hr at 15 psi with no limit on the withdrawal rate, but a #10 tip can make almost 200K btu/hr at 20 psi.

I know the regulator can go to 20 psi but is the red marking after 15 just cause it's made for acetylene?

Guys on the welding forums say all the internal part numbers are the same on Victor LPG and acetylene regs.

Acetylene is b***y dangerous above 15 PSIG, yes.

As to the rest, I'd recommend buying a Propane-specific regulator so as to not have to "find out" if there are other problems possible. Not as if they cost all that much.

Terry Keeley · Jan 6, 2018

Monarchist said:
Acetylene is b***y dangerous above 15 PSIG, yes.

As to the rest, I'd recommend buying a Propane-specific regulator so as to not have to "find out" if there are other problems possible. Not as if they cost all that much.

You're right I'm sure but I'd hate to waste $150 if I don't need to.

Victor Regulator Edge ESS3-4-51 LP, 781-518 - MATHESON Online Store

Bobw · Jan 6, 2018

Monarchist said:
Acetylene is b***y dangerous above 15 PSIG, yes.

Is that because the tanks are full of acetone?

bcstractor · Jan 6, 2018

No - it is because acetylene self ignites and spontaneously combusts at 25psi. It starts going unstable above 15 psi.

Monarchist · Jan 6, 2018

Bobw said:
Is that because the tanks are full of acetone?

The reverse, actually.

Acetone ADsorbs Acetylene, sorta hanging the molecules out separately at safe angles so they don't bump pelvis. That makes it relatively docile at higher pressures.

Woe betide you if the tank is NOT charged with Acetone on fibrous or porous material with a borderline insanely high surface area.

Once in the lines leaving the tank for the torch-tip, however, it no longer has that calming influence acting on its molecules.

Shock, friction, rapid temperature or pressure change, heat, or vibration can cause explosive decomposition.

No Oxidizer needed.

It ain't picky as to Oxidizers, either for that matter.

Acetylene is explosively flammable in ignorant air at damned near any percentage concentration one can put a whole number to.

DDoug · Jan 6, 2018

Terry Keeley said:
I need the heating capacity to melt some stainless steel.

Have a small (#4) heating nozzle that came with my "Performer" kit, it can put out about 29K btu/hr on acetylene but that clearly exceeds the 1/7 tank rule for my small 60 cuft tank.

A #8 tip on propane can put out 87K btu/hr at 15 psi with no limit on the withdrawal rate, but a #10 tip can make almost 200K btu/hr at 20 psi.

I know the regulator can go to 20 psi but is the red marking after 15 just cause it's made for acetylene?

Guys on the welding forums say all the internal part numbers are the same on Victor LPG and acetylene regs.

If the internal parts are all the same, then I would venture to say the diaphragm will withstand the propane (much like t rated hose)
So it must just be the inlet fitting is different.

I am curious that the tips will run both acetylene and propane.
Do you have a linky to the chart for those tips ?

TDegenhart · Jan 6, 2018

Bobw said:
Is that because the tanks are full of acetone?

No, because once the acetylene is not longer dissolved in the acetone, as in the hoses and beyond. Acetylene can explode beyond 29 psi from a shock, fire or other strong disturbance. The gage is set at 15 psi for safety margin.

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?40290-Heating-with-oxy-propane-vs-oxy-acetylene

Tom

Terry Keeley · Jan 6, 2018

"I am curious that the tips will run both acetylene and propane.
Do you have a linky to the chart for those tips ?"

You need different nozzles for acetylene and LPG (propane, natural gas) but my regulator comes with a CGA-510 fitting that fits both acetylene and propane bottles.

Heating nozzles are on page 47:

http://www.esabna.com/shared/documents/litdownloads/65-1308.pdf

My manual says the MFN10 will fit my 100FC handle but in the catalog it looks like it's for the 300. I'll call tech support on Mon.

So is my acetylene regulator that's rated to 40 psi OK for propane at 20? Is the red line just there because it meant for acetylene?

boslab · Jan 6, 2018

No prob running propane through at 20, I've run it much much higher.
As for acetylene, never run high pressure acetylene through copper, not even a bit of copper for a hose connection, it goes bang acetylene and copper at pressure don't mix (no the nozzle isn't at high pressure it's at low pressure high flow rate, different thing)
Mark

Terry Keeley · Jan 6, 2018

boslab said:
No prob running propane through at 20, I've run it much much higher.
As for acetylene, never run high pressure acetylene through copper, not even a bit of copper for a hose connection, it goes bang acetylene and copper at pressure don't mix (no the nozzle isn't at high pressure it's at low pressure high flow rate, different thing)
Mark

You've run propane at 20 psi + with a reg. made for acetylene?

DDoug · Jan 6, 2018

Terry Keeley said:
"I am curious that the tips will run both acetylene and propane.
Do you have a linky to the chart for those tips ?"

You need different nozzles for acetylene and LPG (propane, natural gas) but my regulator comes with a CGA-510 fitting that fits both acetylene and propane bottles.

Heating nozzles are on page 47:

http://www.esabna.com/shared/documents/litdownloads/65-1308.pdf

My manual says the MFN10 will fit my 100FC handle but in the catalog it looks for the 300. I'll call tech support on Mon.

So is my acetylene regulator that's rated to 40 psi OK for propane at 20? Is the red line just there because it meant for acetylene?

Thank you for the linked catalog.

metalmagpie · Jan 6, 2018

The nipples and nuts are identical between acetylene and propane. Same hose fitting and diaphragm. There is some risk using a propane regulator for acetylene because propane can leave tar which can become unstable around acetylene.

I have been using torches a long time and I go between fuel gases with the ssme regulator routinely.

metalmagpie

Monarchist · Jan 6, 2018

TDegenhart said:
No, because once the acetylene is not longer dissolved in the acetone, as in the hoses and beyond. Acetylene can explode beyond 29 psi from a shock, fire or other strong disturbance. The gage is set at 15 psi for safety margin.

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?40290-Heating-with-oxy-propane-vs-oxy-acetylene

Tom

It doesn't dissolve IN the Acetone. A 225 lb tare Acetylene cylinder only has about 15 lbs Avoir of Acetone spread over the surface of its filler material. Asbestos fibers for a long time, but not-only. Goal is a coating but one or a few Molecules "thick", but over an enormous amount of surface area.

The Acetone molecules make a weak atomic attachment to the Acetone's molecules - several Acetylene to each of Acetone.

"ADsorption" rather than ABsorption, we class that.

TDegenhart · Jan 6, 2018

boslab said:
No prob running propane through at 20, I've run it much much higher.
As for acetylene, never run high pressure acetylene through copper, not even a bit of copper for a hose connection, it goes bang acetylene and copper at pressure don't mix (no the nozzle isn't at high pressure it's at low pressure high flow rate, different thing)
Mark

All my acetylene tank fitting are brass on both high and low side.

Tom

Bill D · Jan 6, 2018

Interesting thread I did a little research because of this and found out that both acetylene and hydrogen have what is known as negative Joule-Thompson coefficients. This means that unlike most gases as they exit from high pressure into low pressure they heat up. If the pressure drop is enough they will self ignite in air.
This is not the same as acetylene becoming unstable above about 25PSi and exploding in a sealed container with no other gases. This is not burning reaction with oxygen in the air. It simply becomes unstable and breaks its atomic bonds at a critical pressure. This pressure varies a little depending on temperature and any metals that can act as a catalyst the surface finish of these catalysts can also influence the critical pressure.
Bill D

jim rozen · Jan 6, 2018

boslab said:
No prob running propane through at 20, I've run it much much higher.
As for acetylene, never run high pressure acetylene through copper, not even a bit of copper for a hose connection, it goes bang acetylene and copper at pressure don't mix (no the nozzle isn't at high pressure it's at low pressure high flow rate, different thing)
Mark

The term you are looking for, is copper acetaldehydes.

This is the reason that acetlyene cylinders are never manifolded together with copper tubing.

O/T - Acetylene regulator for LPG (propane)?

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