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08-31-2009, 11:35 AM #1
Oil experts - how is Food Grade gear oil different?
I'm in search of 250W gear oil. The local sources can't get it so I looked in McMaster Carr. They have Mobil products, and in the line is one 250W gear oil, identified as food grade gear oil. Here - http://www.mcmaster.com/#1401k71/=3fiiq2 Will this do the job where standard 250W is specified? It's described as clear rather than amber like standard gear oils. What is different about clear food grade oil other than the color? When I click on the MSDS link is comes up as for BelRay NoTox oil.
Barring an answer to this, does anyone have a source for quarts or gallons of 250W GL4 or lower gear oil? I know it's about the same viscosity as 600W, I already have 600W and want real 250W.
08-31-2009, 12:06 PM #2
If it meets the AGMA specs for your gears, then it's fine. Generally, food grade means that the oil is non-toxic for incidental exposure to foodstuffs.( no deep-frying on the job!). Often, it's the additives, like anti-foaming, or extreme pressure, that fail the food grade spec. Again, if the oil meets your gear train specs, and you are content with price/delivery, you will be fine!
08-31-2009, 12:13 PM #3
Food grade usually means the oil is rated for incidental contact with food. I think the designation is National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) H-1. That means it won't make you sick if a little accidentally gets into food, not that you can eat spoonfuls of the stuff. For oil, it is highly refined mineral oil, like you can buy in drugstore, but obviously with the right viscosity, etc.
I'd avoid using food-grade lubes where they are not necessary, as there is often a compromise in the additive effectiveness to achieve low toxicity.
Sorry, I cannot help you on sourcing 250W oil. However, you can roll your own by blending 600W and an oil lighter than 250W, preferably of the same type and brand. If you're not afraid of a little math, you can figure out the weight ratio to mix to get the desired viscosity. http://www.crazyengineers.com/forum/...equations.html
You can search Google for "viscosity blending" to find other sources for the formula. I've done viscosity blending to get the right viscosity spindle oil for my Colchester Chipmaster lathe.
08-31-2009, 12:13 PM #4
250-w gear oil
250-w gear oil available from MSC SUPPLY in one gallon jugs.
08-31-2009, 01:21 PM #5Barring an answer to this, does anyone have a source for quarts or gallons of 250W GL4 or lower gear oil? I know it's about the same viscosity as 600W, I already have 600W and want real 250W.
Shoot me at will, but why the 250 if you already have 600?
I have found 600 to not be all that much thicker than 80/90. Or at least not nearly as thick as I expected.
Think Snow Eh!
08-31-2009, 04:59 PM #6
L.RUSS - I searched online and in the MSC catalog through everything they called gear oil, found some iso 1000 oils but nothing called SAE250 gear oil. Do you have more of a description so I can find it?
OX - no dope slaps here. It's for a 1936 Ford transmission that shifts badly. Once it's warmed up I have to double clutch it - makes letting other people drive it interesting too. It's not otherwise noisy so I don't think it's just wear. The knowledgeable say the the proper oil is important to make these trans work right. Modern oils are too slippery (like GL-5) and too thin for these old synchronizers, 600W isn't right for helical gears and doesn't shift right either. The alternatives are to buy it by the quart at exhorbitant prices from restoration houses or go for even more expensive synthetic alternatives that might not work.
Ford called for 140 in the winter, 250 in the summer. What's in it now looks and feels and smells like 600W mixed with black cottage cheese. I want to flush the box and put the right oil in then change it again after running it a bit, so I'm trying to not pay tourist retail for the oil. The rear uses the same oil and I'm sure it could stand a change too, so I'm up for several gallons.
I'm looking for more info on that BelRay oil from M-C, that might do the trick, or BelRay might have the exact thing.
08-31-2009, 05:06 PM #7
08-31-2009, 05:42 PM #8
Know they sell that in 5 gal pails...not sure about 1 gal lots...
08-31-2009, 06:05 PM #9
08-31-2009, 06:12 PM #10
08-31-2009, 06:27 PM #11
Might be able to find an M-22 somewhere.
I'm not big on spoiled milk. Especially if it has THAT much pepper on it! I'll skip the sip/sip and just pass.
Think Snow Eh!
08-31-2009, 06:46 PM #12
If your tranny has bronze synchros, GL-5 may not be the way to go. Non synthetic GL-5 oils usually have sulphur as an extreme pressure additive, and it has a reputation for eating bronze synchros.
08-31-2009, 07:04 PM #13
As I was was reading the begining posts to this I was thinking that this guy must be talking about an old Ford and the trans and rear lube. And that's really the only time I ever hear about 600wt oil.
There was just an informative discussion this last week about this issue over at the H.A.M.B. And you could do a search over there to read the whole thing, but in a nutshell, The 600wt oil was a grading system that was obsoleted many years ago and that modern gear oils are fine for these old geartrains. Some guys use homebrew mixtures of different oils, and additives. Most use 140 or 85-90 gear oils.
And you don't need gallons, the rears and trans only hold a couple of pints each.
I know getting the cottage cheese out will help. That's probably a result of ancient oils having evaporated off the more volitile componants.
And save a little for the steering gear, too.
There was also an interesting thought about the restoration suppliers that repackaged a modern oil and called it 600W so the restorers would buy it and think they were treating their old Ford to the proper lube.
09-01-2009, 03:14 AM #14
I just checked the jug again.It is "TRU-EDGE" brand,and defInately from MSC.Possbly they no longer carry it.We use it to keep moisture off some polished,ground surfaces on some antique gas engines.It is dark,very thick,and very tacky,and marked 250-w gear oil.If you put it in your transmission iam not sure you will shift it in cold weather.
09-01-2009, 04:42 AM #15
I know this isn't an answer to your question, but after rebuilding my neighbor's
1944 jeep gearbox (ford T-89) and spicer transfer case, we re-filled with synthetic
mobil one gear oil (95-ish wt) and the synchros seem to be still working fine after
about ten years.
The aftermarket intermediate shaft in the transfer case, however, seems to have
worn badly, causing the needle rollers there to come undone. Suspect it came
without the requisite heat-treat....
09-01-2009, 05:06 AM #16
Can you just thin down the 600 with some mineral oil?
09-01-2009, 05:53 AM #17
If food grade is mineral oil, it may be just what you want. I know nothing about Ford transmissions or the shifting problems you are having but I have experience with 1950s and 1960s vintage Alfa Romeos. They specified straight mineral oil for their transmissions in order for the synchros to work right. Any modern gear oil would cause slipping of the synchros until they changed synchro materials in the mid 60s.
09-01-2009, 10:15 AM #18
MSC does sell Lubriplate SPO in gallon containers. Page 2610 of the big book.
ISO-460 is about an SAE 190 or AGMA-7
ISO-680 is about an SAE 250 or AGMA-8
ISO-1000 is a high SAE 250 or AGMA-8A
It's been a long time ago, but I swear that somebody made a 140/250W that we used in CAE quick change rear ends about 40 years ago. I though that it was Lubrication Engineers, but could not find anything on the website. The old CAE and Halibrand rear ends used a Ford ring & pinion in them.
09-01-2009, 10:40 AM #19
Back in the 60's on the CAMRA ( oval trak asphalt NW US ) race circut we used Hiltons Hyper Lube for our Halibrand qc diff, dont know if still out there or not,and cannot remember if we used it in the trans ( most likely tho). or something else...
09-01-2009, 10:53 AM #20
The brass goes first on those old trannys. Long before anything else, and they don't make noise. Easy to replace once you get the main shaft out. You can see the wear from the top cover, if there is an access panel in the body. If not, trade for a Willy's Jeep. You'll have the same problem, but they have a cover over the tranny. Sycros are good for a couple years of nice shifting, but keep in mind, these were made when you had to oil the distributor wick every 1000 miles and adjust the brakes every month. Valve jobs were expected every 25000 miles, but all that stuff was cheap at the service station. Now you can get doughnuts, rub off lottery cards and smokes when you get gas. I dropped in a V6 and added modern self adjusting drum brakes. Didn't help the sycros.