is hardinge AHC automatic retrofittable?

everytime i see one of these i wonder if a guy could take it to a "semi-manual" sort of machine.
i would suppose they have "set-up mode" that is kinda like manual
what say you old automatic guys

HARDINGE AUTOMATIC CHUCKER, AHC SUPER PRECISION LATHE | eBay

I've had similar thoughts and wondered about Prototrak.

Centroid sells a retro fit kit for that machine....all new electronics.....I have never used one after refit. If it is as user friendly as my Centroid refited Bridgeport it will be pretty sweet.

Yea, I have been looking at that machine too. The price is nice and if your close $800 isn't bad even if you can't retrofit.
I think it might be a lot of work n money/time though, is it really worth it?

moonlight machine said:

Centroid sells a retro fit kit for that machine....all new electronics.....I have never used one after refit. If it is as user friendly as my Centroid refited Bridgeport it will be pretty sweet.

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I think you're thinking of the HNC. AHC's have no electronics it's all micro switches, dwell pots and hydraulics. I ran a pair of AHC's many years ago, the first step way from manual machines. Great machines as they are, incredibly simple, but like all things have their limitations. I really don't remember how they're built but I'm not sure they even have ball screws, I think it's just hydraulic cylinders. So I'm guessing they'd be tough to upgrade.

I had two of these AHC running in our shop for several years. The machines are very accurate and repeatable on length +-.0005 and diameter+-.0002 or better in some cases.

They are limited in the way they work though. Both axis are driven by hydraulic cylinders that feed to hard stops. There is only one stop per axis on each of the 6 stations so you will only have one cut diameter or one length per station. Part of each x axis move can be in rapid and part in feed by adjusting the limit switch trip dogs. The machine also has a peck drilling cycle.

Each station has independently adjustable dwell time at the stop points by separate potentiometer controlled timed relays. Each station also has x axis feed rate controls by adjusting small hydraulic valves. y axis feed is also adjustable by small valves.

Hydraulic overhead cutoff slides are on most and automatic single point threading attachments and taper attachments are on some machines.

The spindle drive was a high/low electric clutch range selectable by trip cam and also a high/low speed in each range by hydraulic vari drive pulley selectable by trip cam. You could have 4 spindle speeds available per part but only 1 speed per station.

These machines were part of the Hardinge super precision line and if you knew how to use one and it was working right it could turn out some real nice work. They have a 5c built in spindle that is really rigid and the collet closer was either a hydraulic actuated mechanical or a variable grip pnuematic.

With a good setup using indexable tooling you could run for days without issues, just clicking away dropping money down the part chute. If you had one that was not working right it could be a electrical and hydraulic nightmare with pneumatic irritation thrown in too .

They are production machines, not meant for single piece jobs, and I don't see how you could use one for single piece since there were no graduated dials on the machine. The stops were all adjusted by referring to dial indicators on built in brackets. Setup can be tedious and time consuming and you need to plan out the cutting cycles to be sure you can get it done in six stations worth of tools. Also as the hydraulic fluid warms up and gets thinner the feed rates increase, not a big deal in summer but they start up slow and cold in the winter so you have to tinker with them until they warm up.

I couldn't believe the one on ebay sold for that much. I couldn't sell or trade off the two I had and they worked perfectly, they were just slow compared to the cnc stuff. I was down to $500 each for a year with no takers so I ended up parting them out for the hydraulics and head stocks and scrapping the iron.

If your relay logic electrical skills are weak I would not suggest getting one of these. If you do get one electrical diagrams and manuals are a necessity.

I have seen a gang tool slide mounted on the bed of various Hardinge machines. HC's, AHC's, DSMA's and even a nice HLVH. The chuckers have enough room on the spindle where the thread drum is, to belt the encoder to, the others can be a bit tight for room.

Bill

rockcampbell said:

I had two of these AHC running in our shop for several years. ...

They are limited in the way they work though.

The spindle drive was a high/low electric clutch range selectable by trip cam and also a high/low speed in each range by hydraulic vari drive pulley selectable by trip cam. You could have 4 spindle speeds available per part but only 1 speed per station.


They are production machines, not meant for single piece jobs, and I don't see how you could use one for single piece since there were no graduated dials on the machine.

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Great post, Rock.

I was part of a project in the early 90s that retrofitted 2 AHCs with Fagor 8024 CNC controls, somewhat similar to to the Accu-slide retrofits. The AHCs were very popular for CNC retrofits then, because they're the most rugged of the Hardinges and the most available since they were becoming obsolete.

I think if you were to convert them to manual use, you'd have a lot of work ahead of you. As Rock said, everything is controlled hydraulically/pneumatically/electrically-no manual mechanical controls. The turret is rotated, locked and held in place hydraulically (no racks), and there's a pneumatic only collet closer.

On the plus side, the dovetail bed is the same size as the later model chuckers, so I suppose if you got a turret and rack from one of those, you'd be a third of the way there. Or maybe the turret could be controlled using the present hydraulics with manually operated switches. Downsides would be no feel for tool load and working with the damn hydraulic pump whining fulltime. Other issues would be spindle speed, on-off and direction control, and collet closer control, which could be done using the present relays and some added pushbutton switches.

Seems doable, but I think that if you want a chucker and count your time as worth something, buying a used chucker would be a better option.

But, if you still want to do it, have I got a deal for you! One of the later model AHCs, with variable grip collet closer, complete, with the leftover pieces from the two retrofitted machines: turrets, dovetail beds, hydraulics, spindle speed change motors and related gear, spindle motors, and 3 complete control cabinets (containing 3 lifetime's supply of relays :-) ). They're in my buddy's widow's barn in central Vermont and I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure she'd be happy to see it all go to a good home at scrap prices. She also has a factory manual and video.

If you're still interested (after my most excellent sales job :-) ) lemme know.

Neil

If I were doing this, I'd buy a stripped down DV-59 and fit an Omni-turn slide to it.

jim rozen said:

If I were doing this, I'd buy a stripped down DV-59 and fit an Omni-turn slide to it.

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i'd go with an HC. wider bed, much beefier headstock, and fatter spindle all equal much more rigidity. probably can be found for cheaper as well.

+2 on the HC wider bed and room for a spindle encoder. So you can single point thread and use feed per turn.

Bill

thanks, rockcampbell

Thanks for the great description of how these machines work. I often wondered why they seem to sell so low.

If the choice were between the original machine under discussion (which was an AHC)
and a DV-59, the smaller machine wins hands-down. Too much crap to get rid of
on an AHC.

Now if one could find a chucker (manual chucker) for the same price as a DV-59, then
that's a different story.

Don't know if the mechanics are possible given the space available but lateral thinking time says it ought to be possible in principle to replace the fixed stops with feed screw driven equivalents. I presume the stops work on the hydraulic cylinder control valves, not as a hard anchor against full drive power, so the forces aren't silly. Could run that sort of thing via Mach or other low end, limited, CNC controller but I'd use LabView. Turn the drawing into a table of cuts and have at it.

Obviously more to it than just that but same thinking ought to work for rapids trips and the other single function hydraulics/pneumatics. Way I see it LabView is better at that sort of thing than a CNC driver system which assumes its looking at a conventional CNC set-up.

If you wanna be real cool an equivalent to chase screw cutting is possible if you can sync the spindle to the stop feed screw.

Been nooging around building a proof of concept lathe along those sort of lines as a retirement project once my pension kicks in.

Clive

jim rozen said:

If I were doing this, I'd buy a stripped down DV-59 and fit an Omni-turn slide to it.

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The Omni-turns were not very rugged- rotary encoders, undersized ballscrews and servomotors and no provision for lubricating the ballscrews.

Light duty, IMO, but maybe they'd be a good fit for a DV-59.

Neil

Somebody paid $4950 for that thing? I thought those things went for $1,000 or less.