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OT- Are machinists from India super friendly/ helpful amongst themselves..or insane ?

Milacron

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Staff member
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
Reason I ask is about once every two weeks I get an email or pm from a new machinist in India that stumbled something about a machine I've posted about in the past here on PM and asks bluntly if I could email them a copy of that or that manual or electrical schematic for that machine !

I could sort of see it, if they prefaced the statement with something like "Hello, you don't know me from Budda, and I know this is asking alot from a stranger, but could you by any chance..."

But instead it's always something like "I see you have a Miyano XXX, I'm having trouble with mine...can you email me the electrical schematics ?" And that's it. And of course they have zero prior history on PM...just that one private message. Or maybe they are pretty smart and just assume we Americans are super friendly fools ready to help out any stranger from anywhere no matter how much PITA it is ? Any thoughts from non insane Indians on this ? :gossip:
 
My gut feel is to be careful - with as many internet scams as there out there, it might be better to just hit the DELETE key....
These are not scams...they reference specific machine models and have no agenda other than PDF files on that machine. I generally ignore/delete anyway as I don't have time to scan multiple pages for people I know, much less complete strangers with no PM history.
 
I think I have some interesting feedback on this issue and I hope I don't offend anyone. I have been working in the medical engineering field for 28 years now and I have always noticed a contempt and arrogance from the Indian doctors I work for. I developed a very good relationship with the lab personnel however. I asked one of the Indian lab personnel one day if it was me or are all the Indian doctors aholes? He told me that it is purely cultural and had nothing to do with me. He said that in India if you have a family that can afford to send you to medical school then you are considered a huge step above the great unwashed so to speak. I will never be on a level ground with the doctors because I am a tradesman and I should just get over it. I have. The other interesting thing he told me is that if you ask an Indian something in public they seem to be compelled to give you the answer you would want to hear regardless of if it is total BS or not. This was the example he gave me. You are standing at a train platform and you ask the man next to you if the train is expected on time even if it is already past due. That person will tell you that it will be there very shortly even if he doesn't have a clue. It's some sort of karma thing. I just thought this was rather interesting. I also worked for a company in Hamburg Germany for five years and found out that Germans are never wrong. Conditions may have changed to make it look like they might have been wrong but they will insist that they are never wrong. Great bunch of guys by the way and absolutely exceptional machinists.
 
I would ask them for a credit card number. Either you make money launching email or you never hear back
from them. You win either way.

How is the boat running Milicron? Jim
 
I worked with a electrical / software engineer from India and he was one of the nicest engineers in the department, but he had been in the US for 20 years. I agree with crossthread, met some students and Doctors from very wealthy upbrining new to US and they were very abrupt. If they come to the US they are probably in the top 2% of wealth in India.
 
First, let me say that the following comments are purely the result of experience and contain no racial prejudice. My bias against Indians is cultural, not racial. People of Indian ancestry who grew up here are just more people with the same good and bad characteristics. I will not do business with anyone who grew up there. Two of the worst hours of my life were spent trying to get an Indian PHD idiot to address the conflicts regarding a machine I was supposed to build for them. The principle seems to be that if he doesn't discuss it, it goes away. I won't fill up more server space with more horror stories, but I have them.

Whenever I call tech support and hear an Indian accent, I know I am in trouble. A Sikh friend who was working toward US citizenship and intended to stay here used to say that nothing could help India.

Re Germans being wrong, they sometimes can be if they had a stupid teacher or bad leadership. Because they otherwise are usually very competent, I find it just comical rather than irritating.

Bill
 
We don't know much about how things are done in India. It's reasonable to assume the inverse, that they don't know much about us, either. Some Indian has a problem with his machine and does an internet search. The results lead him to you. You run a machinist website and you are a machinery dealer. You posted something re: the machine he's working on. Is it so unreasonable for the poor slob to assume you may be a representative dealer for that brand of machine?

As to their brusque style, remember English is not their first language. Maybe they stick to the basics, the tried and true, to keep from coming across to us as idiots.

I'm not saying that these are definitive explanations, but isn't it the charitable thing to assume them, even if you (understandably) don't spend all of your time sending them free stuff, and even if they ARE idiots?

Steve

btw, if you get a LOT of these messages, why not make up a stock reply, e.g. "I am a used machinery dealer who owned at one time an example of the machine you mention. I sold the machine some time ago and so have no further information about it to share. Good luck fixing your machine." Call it good international relations. What cheeses me off is when I go to the MANUFACTURER of a machine and request information and receive no info or even acknowledgement, even though the manufacturer is still in business and still making the same or similar machines. I can understand that providing basic information about old machines isn't exactly a recipe for success, but why not say, "We have the manual you need, it costs 20 British Pounds" or something similar? (The machine in question is British). I'd gladly pay that,even if all I get is a stinkin' PDF.

s
 
Its a byproduct of the caste system and its something you wont understand unless you travel there extensively or have lived there, its really fucking tragic actually. That said, Indians i know in the city are some of the nicest and warmest people i have ever known, a little reserved at first but warm up quick and usually the types to give you the shirt off of their backs if your in need, your mileage may vary..this is just my experience. They are right up there with the PR's and Italians.
 
Reason I ask is about once every two weeks I get an email or pm from a new machinist in India that stumbled something about a machine I've posted about in the past here on PM and asks bluntly if I could email them a copy of that or that manual or electrical schematic for that machine !

I could sort of see it, if they prefaced the statement with something like "Hello, you don't know me from Budda, and I know this is asking alot from a stranger, but could you by any chance..."

But instead it's always something like "I see you have a Miyano XXX, I'm having trouble with mine...can you email me the electrical schematics ?" And that's it. And of course they have zero prior history on PM...just that one private message. Or maybe they are pretty smart and just assume we Americans are super friendly fools ready to help out any stranger from anywhere no matter how much PITA it is ? Any thoughts from non insane Indians on this ? :gossip:

They should have said the operative word "Please" . And even then should have offered compensation for your trouble and understanding if you are unable to help.

I am trying to see the situation through their eyes, so I suppose the machinists know enough English to get by but not too familiar with Western norms and are used to the abrupt and curt mode of behaviour of Asia. Reminds me of how Western people are shocked at how rude people in big Asian cities are (from the SubCon to South Korea), like not standing in line

Still saying " please " and asking politely is pretty basic English speaking behaviour....

A little personal expreince...
I ride the 3 wheel rikshaw pretty often and noticed that the drivers sometimes will ask directions from passer-bys or other auto-rikshaw drivers. Now they don't say thank you but will sort of shake their head once from side to side or nod, as an expression of thanks. Even if their head movement is not very noticeable, it is understood that they do appreciate the help.
 
First, let me say that the following comments are purely the result of experience and contain no racial prejudice. My bias against Indians is cultural, not racial. People of Indian ancestry who grew up here are just more people with the same good and bad characteristics. I will not do business with anyone who grew up there. Two of the worst hours of my life were spent trying to get an Indian PHD idiot to address the conflicts regarding a machine I was supposed to build for them. The principle seems to be that if he doesn't discuss it, it goes away. I won't fill up more server space with more horror stories, but I have them.
Bill
I am from the region and even though I left when I was a baby , I know what you are talking about.
We don't know much about how things are done in India. It's reasonable to assume the inverse, that they don't know much about us, either. Some Indian has a problem with his machine and does an internet search. The results lead him to you. You run a machinist website and you are a machinery dealer. You posted something re: the machine he's working on. Is it so unreasonable for the poor slob to assume you may be a representative dealer for that brand of machine?
As to their brusque style, remember English is not their first language. Maybe they stick to the basics, the tried and true, to keep from coming across to us as idiots.
I'm not saying that these are definitive explanations, but isn't it the charitable thing to assume them, even if you (understandably) don't spend all of your time sending them free stuff, and even if they ARE idiots?
Steve
Steve, plenty of Indians know English well enough. Really you would have to find someone who is from the lowest classes , tribal folk etc.. to find someone who isn't familiar with English. If they are machinists and can type in English, then they know enough to be polite and courtious. English is not really a foreign language in this part of the world, virtually all professionals know it reasonably well to converse effectively. India has umpteen different languages, many are mutually unintelligible so English is the lingua franka. Same thing in the Arabian gulf; I lived there and don't know a lick of Arabic, because English is all you need to know.
I think I have some interesting feedback on this issue and I hope I don't offend anyone. I have been working in the medical engineering field for 28 years now and I have always noticed a contempt and arrogance from the Indian doctors I work for. I developed a very good relationship with the lab personnel however. I asked one of the Indian lab personnel one day if it was me or are all the Indian doctors aholes? He told me that it is purely cultural and had nothing to do with me. He said that in India if you have a family that can afford to send you to medical school then you are considered a huge step above the great unwashed so to speak. I will never be on a level ground with the doctors because I am a tradesman and I should just get over it. I have. The other interesting thing he told me is that if you ask an Indian something in public they seem to be compelled to give you the answer you would want to hear regardless of if it is total BS or not. This was the example he gave me. You are standing at a train platform and you ask the man next to you if the train is expected on time even if it is already past due. That person will tell you that it will be there very shortly even if he doesn't have a clue. It's some sort of karma thing. I just thought this was rather interesting. I also worked for a company in Hamburg Germany for five years and found out that Germans are never wrong. Conditions may have changed to make it look like they might have been wrong but they will insist that they are never wrong. Great bunch of guys by the way and absolutely exceptional machinists.
Its a byproduct of the caste system and its something you wont understand unless you travel there extensively or have lived there, its really fucking tragic actually. That said, Indians i know in the city are some of the nicest and warmest people i have ever known, a little reserved at first but warm up quick and usually the types to give you the shirt off of their backs if your in need, your mileage may vary..this is just my experience. They are right up there with the PR's and Italians.
You are spot on on the arrogance of the Indian educated/upper classes. As someone who is from the SubCon, let me tell you that people who work with their hands ...are looked on as inferior by those with degrees/upper classes, it is the caste system at work. They bring this mentality of sneering/looking down at people who work-with-their-hands to the West when they emigrate .
This galactic ego of SubCon upper classes / the educated and their contempt and look-down-upon mentality is one of the reasons the region is soo dysfunctional.
Edit
I edited cause don't want Milacron to lock his own thread cause of me, but I left some of the spicy replies in as I figure that the OP is expected to cause 'strong' replies.
 
why, Even I many times post questions about the new piece of Junk sitting in my shop and get no answers days on end. AllI can say is that being friends with an Indian is one thing and working for them is another.
 
Suppose I'll throw some of my personal experiences in as well.

I must know at least a couple dozen Indians who did undergraduate work, often at IIT (their MIT), then came here for a master's degree and ended up staying. Almost without exception they're good guys, very competent, and sometimes with a terrific sense of humor. A lot of that is because they represent the best of India -- they made it into their top school, made it through, and then had the backing to get to grad school here and figure out our culture. Many have done very well, especially in Silicon Valley and not so long ago around Detroit and Route 128.

I've also noticed what seem to be remnants of the caste system. Working with computers (or computer simulations if a ME) is OK. Working with your hands, not much. I've asked several about this. Some sort of agree and others demur; as if talking about caste isn't politically correct. Someone has probably done a study on this -- I'd be interested to know.

Whatever the case, I'm not aware of any of my Indian colleagues who aspires to have a home shop and build stuff. The exception to this observation might be the couple of Sikh's I know. That culture seems a bit more hands on and actually pretty interesting.

A couple of Indians I know worked together at IBM. One was Hindu, the other Moslem. They seemed to surmount the usual difficulties this might cause in India.

Within India itself there is a tremendous scramble to get ahead. The poor scramble for everything. The middle class scramble to get into a good school. I suspect some of this scrambling attitude expresses itself in Don's experience? It would actually be pretty interesting if the caller were trying to find manuals to fix up a home shop machine -- seems more likely they're trying to resell it to a multinational in their own country?? The Chinese seem to have a bit of this soft aggression as a result of a scramble toward the top, though not as much English for us to notice? And, FWIW, our own Horatio Alger stories from the 1900's often feature some very pushy types.
 
I have Indian friends and Indians I've worked with for years. I've been to India a couple times so have had a variety of experiences though I don't claim any authority. The class business no doubt comes into play but probably only when there's some jockeying for position, even if it only means defining the relationship. I've experienced the "look down" because I was classed as just a tradesman. OTOH, I've had unending friendly, generous interactions with people I've just casually bumped into in India. For instance a young couple at the Taj Mahal who wanted someone to take their picture there, then wanted a photo of me standing with them. Delightful, shy, gracious folks and I wish them well wherever they are.

Another factor that comes into play is resources. I think a lot of interactions relate to who can help or facilitate so there's a network of favors given and asked. I may do you a favor, whether you asked for it or not, just so I'll be able to call for one sometime in the future if I need it. Inasmuch as corruption is common, even on a small scale, a lot of transactions may not be strictly cash based the way we're used to. If I need a plumber, he comes, does the work, I pay him and we go our separate ways. With small scale corruption the charge for the service isn't sufficient, there needs to be a little grease for the transaction and that also implies favors offered and received even if we see that as a small bribe.

In regard to these requests for stuff, I'd treat it as just the initial query to sort out how we're going to relate and what might be needed to get the transaction to go through. These guys don't know what may be required until they probe and the negotiations progress. My approach, if I didn't want to just be the source of endless favors, would be to reply politely and say that it's some trouble to come up with what he asks and it might cost me a little to get what he wants and see what happens. I'm betting you could at least scrape off some small change for your trouble, and if the other guy doesn't want to bargain you'll never hear from him again - just like if you blow him off.
 
We do business with some folks from India who are great people. These are folks like us who make stuff.

It is funny about really top level folks. We seem to deal with three kinds.

1. We have a bunch as customers. These are folks who are really bright and really successful. They like straight, short, accurate answers. They really like being able to request something from the Customer Service Reps and knowing it will get done. These are very polite, considerate people and seem to be most likely to write thank you notes to me about how good the girls are.

2. Technical folks who have read what I have written and want clarification. These range from students to the head of R&D for Freud. I like these folks. First, they read my stuff before calling and their questions show me that. Second, they are very polite and courteous. Third, I learn a great deal because they bring up things I had never considered, much like discussions here.

3. The insecure and self –important. These are the ones who are most likely to be rude and demanding. (These are different from really nice folks who have been screwed over someplace else and are desperate.) These folks don’t bother to read anything I have written. They just assume I have nothing better to do for an hour than answer their questions.
 
I've also noticed what seem to be remnants of the caste system. Working with computers #or computer simulations if a ME) is OK. Working with your hands, not much. I've asked several about this. Some sort of agree and others demur; as if talking about caste isn't politically correct. Someone has probably done a study on this -- I'd be interested to know.

Whatever the case, I'm not aware of any of my Indian colleagues who aspires to have a home shop and build stuff. The exception to this observation might be the couple of Sikh's I know. That culture seems a bit more hands on and actually pretty interesting.

Re. Model shop
Yes very true.
SubCon are big on book learning and short on practical hands on expereince. When I was a kid growing up in the MidEast, I was the only one who was into Model railroads, scratch building, tinkering, using hand tools etc.. When I lived in London, I used to go to the Model Railway & Model Engineering shows and I recall that it was devoid of Asians (Indains, Pakistanis etc..), 99% White despite there being lots of Asians in London.

Indians/Pakistanis/SubCons/Oil rich Arabs look down on people who work with their hands and in my expreince the financially able ones don't have a culture of model engineering/hobby shop etc..like in the West . 'Course the majority (S.Asians) are too poor to have a home shop but there are tens of millions who can afford it, yet even the ones in the West don't really seem to be into it. Maybee just my expereince...
 
Whatever the case, I'm not aware of any of my Indian colleagues who aspires to have a home shop and build stuff. The exception to this observation might be the couple of Sikh's I know. That culture seems a bit more hands on and actually pretty interesting.
very true, never really thought about it but you make a good point.
my old boss was a Sikh and one of the most hands on and involved bosses ever. A VERY good carpenter and an even better general contractor who does million dollar and up reno's, mostly the upper east side of Manhattan.
Generous to a fault and just an all around good guy, hadn't had a haircut in like 20 years or something, when he would (rarely) take his tam off it was insane how much hair there was ;)
 
I frequent an electronics forum with, say 25% Indian members, the other members are from every country. Often there is a post along the line of : " I need the circuit and parts list for to make a 20 watt amplifier". Signed ZZZZ. Er, I can put up with marginal English, but I need humouring with some pleasantries. :-)
Frank
 
I work with a lot of Indian engineers and with few exceptions I enjoy dealing with them. They are low on bullshit and high on getting the job done.

That said, I've had a number of people (Americans, not Indians) contact me over the years on this BB asking the the same question - "I noticed you have a lathe like mine, could you make me a copy of the manual or send me pics of the insides, etc."

I used to be glad to help, and would send whatever they asked for. I've stopped doing it though, because almost every time it goes like this:

1) Could you send me a copy of the manual I could really use it.
2) I go to Kinko's, make copies at my expense, mail it at my expense.
3) Dead silence.
 
Maybe it's the internet culture where everything is for free. Someone who posts here found a post I made about having a Bridgeport grinder and emailed me asking for a copy of the manual, because his company bought one and it didn't have a manual. I spent better than an hour scanning it and making a high res pdf, including the foldout schematics and emailed it to him. He emailed back what did he owe me for the work and I said how about $30. He emailed back that that was too much, he thought this was a hobbyist board and we did this sort of thing for free for each other. He said he'd send me $20 but I never did get anything from him. His emails were signed

Senior Engineer
Hyundai Kia American Technical Center, INC.
6800 Geddes Rd.
Ypsilanti, MI 48198

No idea of his nationality.

No more of that.
 








 
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