Opinions: Can a shop made copper head gasket hold up on a 2 cylinder diesel ?

I've got a sticky situation. Guy has three Japanese made mini-crawlers that he imported in the 80's and uses in his orchard.

They are pretty similar to a small Satoh chassis, but some company in Japan made the tracks, rollers, idlers, sprockets, frames, and the brake conversion components.

Think of little mini dozer or mini agricultural crawler about the size of an 15hp diesel garden tractor(like a Yanmar or Kubota garden tractor, not lawn mower based, an actual little baby tractor).

One of them he was able to source a new engine for from a Japanese parts company. The engine is a specially made variant of the Mitsubishi KE70 2 cylinder diesel. When they are new, they have about 450 lb/in cranking pressure, and they use glow plugs. I'm basing that off the one that has the new engine in it with only 4 hours on it.

His other two have suffered head gasket failures. Magnaflux and pretty careful checking, and obvious damage to the head gaskets themselves(and they are the original probably 35-40 year head gaskets)- lead me to believe a head gasket replacement will fix the two that are broken down.

The problem is that these engines were ordered to spec(kinda like how Thermo King used to order their own versions of the Isuzu C201 diesel for reefers) and there are enough oddball differences in the head and block that a regular KE70 head gasket won't work because of coolant port alignments.

The company that did these crawlers went under in the very late 70's. Mitsubishi was kind enough to check and they haven't had stock on the head gasket for this engine variant going back to when they bought Satoh outright.

The best of the failed head gaskets looks like it would make an acceptable template for me to make one.

The engines will have probably 450 lb/in cranking pressure, like the others- I've re-ringed them, and surfaced the heads. Glow plugs will be used- I have warned him that ether is not to be used, ether is a hanging offense for me. I have warned him that if he uses f#cking ether on any engine I've built for him from now on, I will not hesitate to void the warranty.

I do not have any CNC equipment but I have made a couple copper head gaskets for Brit and Jap Scrap motorcycles on my manual equipment.

In your opinions, if I used my manual machines and copper sheet a few mills thicker than the stock gasket(which is a stamped steel gasket with rubbery dressing), would a gasket made from copper and dressed with something like Cometic's gasket dressing material hold up to diesel cranking pressures ? I do plan on annealing it, as well before dressing.

And I'm not just asking to have my hand held here. I've been reading my metallurgy texts, I've read the previous discussions on copper and head gasket making that have occurred, but most of the people who have actually done it, are like me and it has been on air cooled engines, which is a different animal.

I know on the copper gaskets that were used on Race Hemi applications, Cotton Owens and Harvey Standridge always told me they weeped and leaked a little unless you used the proper dressing and kept your heads torqued properly, so I'm also concerned about that in this diesel application as diesel + glow plugs + H2O do not mix. Well, they mix, but then you are thoroughly up shit creek.

I do not want to try it with steel shim stock, as I've never had any luck making them last what I consider an acceptable life. The Mopar small block guys begged me to make them a steel shim head gasket for the SB's, and the material gradually failed in season or two racing when they didn't change them.

I appreciate any and all advice. I will say this- he's not going to let me retrofit another engine, he's not going to let me order a set of gaskets custom order from Taiwan- he owns an orchard and he's just too cheap.

So if it would be possible to keep the opinions and knowledge shared focused on whether or not a head gasket can be shop made for a high compression 2 cylinder diesel(and it's really not that high a compression for a diesel). Will it hold up ? If I am meticulous and careful, can I accomplish this with my manual machines ? Is copper the appropriate material ? What material would you use ?

I am not someone who rigs up stuff or tries to half ass work. I am going to be very honest here: this winter has been very rough here in the mountains, business has sucked, and I am doing whatever work I can with my job shop to get by. So if it was a better economy, I'd probably refuse to do something like this, instead of just getting a professional head gasket fabricator in Taiwan or Korea to make a run of of 5 or 10 of these gaskets for him to put up. But honestly, I can't turn away the work. I am ashamed to admit that, but right now, every penny counts. No has been bringing their hobby projects much, ag equipment isn't used much during winter so it doesn't break much so I'm not seeing business there, it's too cold to ride motorcycles so I'm not seeing that business, and I'm not seeing much racing or auto business.

So honestly, your help and advice is appreciated, as it is helping me do some very shitty jobs that keeping the lights on, and keeping bologna on hand sandwiches in my sizeable gut. I realize that questions like this are probably offensive and a waste to most of the production machinists here, so I apologize to those individuals for whom this is drivel.

To any and all of you- thank you for taking your time to read, and comment. I cannot thank you enough.

Geardoc,
In my opinion copper gaskets will work fine. With those pressures the only way you will keep them in place is to o ring them with wire. This is exactly how we do it on blown alcohol and top fuel engines. You just cut a register for the wire in the head/block surface.
JB Bergman

I have a good friend that builds antique tractor pulling motors and he almost always uses copper gaskets. But when he does them he also machines the block and head with a groove for stainless steel rings around each cylinder. He makes the rings out of stainless steel wire that he rolls into the groove he machined into the block. When he torques the head down it presses into the copper which in turn seals into the head groove. Maybe something like this would work for you.

Looks like I was a little slow to post.

My main profession has been diesel mechanic for quite a while now. My advice, find a 271 Detroit generator and swap that motor in. You can find runners with no-op generators for a couple hundred dollars if you hunt. Same engine was used in refer rail cars, lots of them out there for 800+/-, add a complete rebuild for about 800 more.
Copper gaskets work fine, they are just a royal pita to get sealed and keep sealed. 7/10 times you will have rework with them no matter what. That said, use CAT sealant on all surfaces and bolt together 10lbs under torque spec, fill coolant and run to operating temp then retorque to top end of spec while things are hot. Try to match your gasket thicknesses as closely as you can, you will loose power if you go to thick. Probably won't crank if too thin.
If you can get a part number for the factory head gasket I can hunt through the back room and see what we have. I know some of those little tractors made it into this area, been a while since one made it through our shop.
Jace

JB Bergman said:

Geardoc,
In my opinion copper gaskets will work fine. With those pressures the only way you will keep them in place is to o ring them with wire. This is exactly how we do it on blown alcohol and top fuel engines. You just cut a register for the wire in the head/block surface.
JB Bergman

Click to expand...

Do you join the ends of the wire together before laying in the register?

The wire seal is good, but making the right size grooves and using the right wire thickness so that the wire doesn't keep the rest of the copper gasket from sealing tightly around the coolant and oil passages could be tricky. If they were my motors I think I'd do as you first suggested, use annealed copper slightly thicker than the original gasket. Make sure the head and block surfaces are as flat as possible but not completely smooth so that they have some tooth. We used to spray our old and used annealed copper gaskets on old Triumph twins with aluminum spray paint. Some were race motors with 12 to 1 compression and alcohol fuel. Not sure how the pressures compare to a Diesel. Good luck with it.

Bob

If you decide to go with the wire o ring, the ends are flush when installed in the register. If you like I will dig out the build notes on the current engine and share them with the group. The wire size and register sizes will be what is currently being run on the majority of all top fuel nitro motors.
JB

+1 on aspp's reply. Swap it out. If you still want to use copper and can't find an NOS replacement. Cometic Cometic Gasket, Inc. will make whatever you want. Ciao.

I sympathize with you about business conditions. I am an old fart now but remember vividly a brilliant man over 40 years ago telling me that running a business was like the birds outside pecking and scratching at the ground. He said that everyday was just like that, scratching enough to get through the day. Keep it up, this is how American business became great, before it took a shit about 40 years ago when people started to buy companies to part them out rather than make money making things.
To your question, I am in the power generation industry. We routinely seal steam up to 3500 psi with no gasket. The secret is very flat, smooth surfaces. They are sealed with triple boiled linseed oil and torqued properly. The same applies to gas turbine engines. Beware of " how we used to do it" stories. The aluminum paint for example. It didn't work because it was aluminum paint, it worked because the vehicle was linseed oil. It works because vegetable oils exposed to heat polymerize and become hard as a whores heart.
Yes copper will work. So will soft steel. I recommend a product called "Tite Seal" made by the same people who make Gunk and Liquid Wrench. Exposed to heat it will become damn near as hard as the cast iron. A VERY thin film on both sides will seal it. You'll be a hero. Oh, to remove it, Easy Off oven cleaner. Or spend hours scraping and hoping.

You didn't say what the original gaskets were made from. Did they have fire rings? Copper by itself will not last. You need tight focused sealing around the cylinders to withstand the compression and heat. The above mentioned wires (fire rings) are used in many engines today.The wires are butt welded just like a band saw blade, and are enclosed in SS flanges at the cylinder openings, no grooves in the block or head.The oil and water openings are outlined with sealant on the gasket facing. I realize you are dealing with a cheapskate,(I'd tell him to fuck off myself.) That being said, as mentioned above you could machine grooves and weld up wires to suit, or at least get a price from the mentioned companies.

I'd probably do like thermite says. If a bought gasket fits around the cylinders, punch out the coolant and oil holes and be done. I've been told this is acceptable practice when using a Chevy 350 gasket on a 400 small block.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, wouldn't seem to be much difference in oil/coolant pressures between a gasser and a diesel.

Disclaimer: I haven't done this, nor been around an engine that has had out done. Just "been told".

It seems to me that the question isn't oil or coolant pressure but combustion pressure. Most diesel are 18 to 22 to one for compression, and the when ignited........... I am Old, drawing a blank here seems like I used to know that detail, combustion pressure. In any case you could figure the volumes and know what the compression ratio is, but all that aside I really like the stainless compression/relief cut in block idea, that is a proven concept. Seems also that you could use rubber O rings around coolant and oil passage holes... I really like the idea from aspp about new old stock and what he may have. Like others have said "good luck" and lets us know what you did and how it turned out. Tim

You might give these guys a call, have had some odd stuff in the past.
Mitsubishi Tractor Parts: Mitsubishi Engine Parts || Weaver's Compact Tractor Parts & Compact Tractor Salvage

Worth a try
David

Hey GD. Can you come back here and tell us how it pans out. I fix old engines from time to time and parts are always a issue. I would like to hear what worked for you. Many guys ask questions but never close the loop..........

I have replaced the head gaskets in my 6.9 Ford (International) that had coolant leaking issues from the factory. Mine was fine and original, but an injector cracked and I needed to get the pieces out. Anyway, the "original" gasket had steel or just the fiber coated steel for the oil and water passages. The upgraded gasket had a formed flat rubber o-ring the was positioned in the gasket upon assembly. This has not leaked for me. I would think that if you had the similar engine gasket as others have said, and punched out the needed holes over sized and installed o-rings to seal you would be better than new.

aspp said:

My advice, find a 271 Detroit generator and swap that motor in. You can find runners with no-op generators for a couple hundred dollars if you hunt.
Jace

Click to expand...

This is exactly 100% to the tee, the same almost to the same wording what I told him. I did not want to find a Johnny Popper gasser to go back in one of the 420C's I built back from scrap, so I waited until a genset came up at Ft. Benning and I got it. I scrapped the ruined genset part for nearly twice what I paid for the whole thing and I ended up with the 271.

You can practically get parts for the 271 at McDonalds.

He won't listen, but he pays cash, so I am doing the listening and what he wants is what he's getting.

The 271 would have more torque(and he pulls huge 6x6x6 apple crates with these little toys) and be more reliable and if something happens. Oh, well, that's too bad, isn't it ? Because he can find another one on Craigslist in 20 minutes with Searchtempest.

Mitsubishi thought I was messing with them- when the OEM doesn't remember making them without asking the old guys- you don't need that engine in a service working environment.

I'm 31, and he's 58, so if I tell him one thing, explain one thing to him, or just answer a question he's asked, he picks apart everything trying to tell me I am wrong. I don't mind learning, but he doesn't know anything about diesels or the practice of a machine shop- and he's dangerous.

The engines had gotten hard to start so he began cutting his diesel with oxygenated AV gas. "We did it back in Oregon in the 60's all the time, young man..."

I want to respect my customers and their wishes. I want return business. I want to do quality work. But, some of them are too cheap on the now side, without realizing the later side is going to bite them in the behind.

The engine he got from Japan cost nearly 4k and he's been so scared to use it because of its cost, it has only 4 hours operating time on it since installation. I did the installation on it. I begged him to go to Surplus Supply and get a 2 cylinder Yanmar for $900 when they were on sale. But he thought he'd get the $2000 KE70 and save money, but he screwed up on his exchange rate calculation, he had to pay freight from the company in Japan to the port, pay ocean freight, taxes and duty, there was brokerage, and then freight from Port of Miami to Atlanta and I did not pick it up for free. So it ended up being a $4000 engine before I ever touched it or installed it.

So he threw a fit when it was done, swore he was never coming back, and he's been paying a guy $75 an hour to come out and do nothing on the other two, and the other guy let him run them, and told him it was fine to use a 1/4 can of ether to start one, glow plugs are only $9 and ether at Big Lots is $2 a can, and engine building is expensive.

I spent 4 hours today on one of them, and he doesn't bat an eye to pay that now, but in those 4 hours I could have had an adapter plate made and Detroit 271 or 253 in there and it back among the apples.

I'm making the prototype copper gasket and I will not lie- I had a bitch of a time with making the stainless seals/orings. I got wire finally at 6pm off a steel supply truck, and I quit and came to the house about 20 minutes ago when I started this post.


THANK YOU ALL.

But, some of them are too cheap on the now side, without realizing the later side is going to bite them in the behind.

Click to expand...

I think everybody has those, and in the now, its REALLY frustrating. And really pisses you off. 5 grand, you are out the door and I don't have
to deal with you.... But no... Can we do it for $2k, back and forth, back and forth, and when all is said and done you have $12k in your pocket
and have wasted $18k in time.... And they think they are a fucking genius because they never wrote a $5k check, just a $2k check and a 1k and
12 $500 checks, and it took a year instead of 2 weeks. But dammit, they beat you down on the price and saved money...

Those are the people you will never ever make happy, they will beat you down every single time. They will always want the cheap way out, and
it ALWAYS cost more in the end.

Price accordingly, and remember, the customer is always right, even when they are an absolute fricken idiot, as long as their check doesn't bounce.

I grew up with cheap ass farmers, good people, but they have a tendency to burn labor hours instead of paying for a part. I would say 60% of my work is guys exactly like this. I'll give them a quote, they bitch and moan, ask me to do it cheaper or come up with some hair brained idea to save a bit of cash. I'll explain why it won't work like they think, and if they say that's how they want it done I tell them is time and materials +500 for a warrantee on the work. Not a single one will take the warrantee, when they come back then tell them how bad you feel and that you will knock x% off the parts if they will trust you and fix it the right way. Occasionally I will have to repeat the process a few times with the real dense guys, but they come around eventually.
Once they trust you, they will bring in a ton of work, and word of mouth from them means more than the quality of the work.
By no means do I mean for you to bend them over a barrel, but don't let them nickel and dime your time bickering over stupid shit.

"...I tell them is time and materials +500 for a warrantee on the work. "

Heh. Nice. They may not understand engineering, but they sure do understand money!

If a copper gasket is to be used, anneal to dead soft I would thing before installing.