Looking for old 3-phase switch with overload protection

Folks,


Here's an old thread with exactly the same question that I have now:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...pulse-type-p25-tp-10h-2-3-2amp-switch-110981/


That thread says that there is a switch of this type on the Charmilles EDM machine.


This switch was originally made by Carl Maier & Cie (CMC) in Switzerland but was bought in 1992 by ABB. "CMC" in this case is not Cleveland Motion Controls. I have contacted ABB both in the US and in Switzerland but to no avail. I've found these switches on ebay but not with the correct current spec which is 2 - 3.2 A. This switch has thermal overload breakers inside and a spring loaded switch. It trips and stays tripped until it's "ready" to be switched back on. I can find lots of 3-pole cam switches but none with the breakers. I'm searching Siemens and Schneider for something similar but I'm not there yet and in any case their switches will not have nearly the form factor I want. It is a 3-pole single throw switch. Voltage at the poles is 240V shown on my Fluke 79 DVM and my guess is the switch is used to energize a motor relay (wires are small). This switch trips after a couple minutes of motor operation with no machine load on the motor (belt off). I have another identical machine from which I took its switch and substituted and the substitute does not trip. I would like to find a replacement for the "tripper."

Ideally I would find a new (old stock, perhaps) or used original.

This switch is integral to a Güdel (Swiss) special engraving machine built in 1978. The machine is built to operate with 220V 3ph.

Perhaps those of you that live in Europe might have a handle on a source. The "Tp 10h" seems to be a key designator for this switch as Google recognizes it.

Here are the numbers on the switch:
CMC
Tp 10h 2-3,2 amp (is this adjustable??)
T25A max. 500V 10A VDE 0600
8hp max. 600V ac 3ph
Part number:~ E-NO 500 140 xxx
Body diameter ~60mm


Here are pictures of the switch and the machine. Any help with a source would be greatly appreciated.




(This is the right switch but the current rating is not what I need)

You are going to have to improvise.

This is a common problem when having to repair old special components that no longer are manufactured.

Well, here's a quote from the original assembler of the electronics box on the machine (Selectron AG, Switzerland):

"This 3-Phase switch is a standard product. So you don’t have to use an ABB product. " They, Selectron, don't carry it anymore or a substitute.

I have a return inquiry to the author of that statement to follow through with the name of a supplier but no response yet. I'm not giving up - I'm still hopin' !

its just a switch. i'll bet Allen Bradley , Furnas , Square-D or someone makes something that would sub for what you need.

tnmgcarbide said:

its just a switch. i'll bet Allen Bradley , Furnas , Square-D or someone makes something that would sub for what you need.

Click to expand...

If the old switch still works for on-off, but does not function as an overload, just use the old switch to signal the low voltage logic on-off contacts on a VFD. The VFD can be located anywhere on or near the machine and you can program any max current value you want, along with some other cool features. You can even get a VFD that runs off 110 V single phase.

If the old switch does not work at all, just make a cover plate with a hole to fit a common USA switch. I like the pull on and push off type because they let you shut down more easily than a lever or toggle.

Larry

tnmgcarbide said:

its just a switch. i'll bet Allen Bradley , Furnas , Square-D or someone makes something that would sub for what you need.

Click to expand...

I wish it were just a switch but it has internal breakers. That's the hang up. Some manufactures make 3-pole "fusible" switches but I do not want fuses. I want a resettable breaker(s) in there just like it is now.

L Vanice said:

If the old switch still works for on-off, but does not function as an overload, just use the old switch to signal the low voltage logic on-off contacts on a VFD. The VFD can be located anywhere on or near the machine and you can program any max current value you want, along with some other cool features. You can even get a VFD that runs off 110 V single phase.

If the old switch does not work at all, just make a cover plate with a hole to fit a common USA switch. I like the pull on and push off type because they let you shut down more easily than a lever or toggle.

Larry

Click to expand...

Hmmm, ... interesting idea. Thanks for that. The on/off function works but it trips for some reason. (As I mentioned before, another identical switch does not trip). This switch somehow regulates through some relays two other on/off switches. One green pushbutton turns the motor on and leaves it on and the other green pushbutton is a momentary "on" switch. Of course, there's the red button to shut off the motor but the breaker switch I'm seeking remains in the "on" position. Again, your idea is interesting. I'll have to read up on VFD's again - I only have one in the shop regulating a grinder.

What you want is called a "manual motor starter"

switch + manually resettable 3 phase breaker

crrmeyer said:

What you want is called a "manual motor starter"

switch + manually resettable 3 phase breaker

Click to expand...

The problem with those are that most of the manual starters are a double push button type. This would work if he is willing to mount this on the outside of the machine.

The other approach that he doesn't seem to want to do is bypass the switch overloads and either mount a 3 pole fuse block or else an overload. The problem with a standalone overload will be that a reset will require opening the door.

This machine should not be blowing fuses or tripping an overload if everything works correctly. The existing switch probably has worn out overloads and is now junk.

Ultimately the Op will have to decide if he wants the machine to be usable or if it is a full restoration project.

Ziggy2 said:

The problem with those are that most of the manual starters are a double push button type. This would work if he is willing to mount this on the outside of the machine.

The other approach that he doesn't seem to want to do is bypass the switch overloads and either mount a 3 pole fuse block or else an overload. The problem with a standalone overload will be that a reset will require opening the door.

This machine should not be blowing fuses or tripping an overload if everything works correctly. The existing switch probably has worn out overloads and is now junk.

Ultimately the Op will have to decide if he wants the machine to be usable or if it is a full restoration project.

Click to expand...

Oh, I definitely want it to be usable! If I ultimately cannot find the replacement part - which I'm hoping someone can point me to a European supplier - I will be happy to replace this switch/breaker with a separate 3-pole cam switch and a separate overload breaker group (not fuses) which I could mount externally. This switch is the only thing wrong with this machine. Everything else works, is completely usable, nothing is worn out, and it is extremely well made.

Great suggestions so far so thanks for that.

Along the line of thought to separate the switch from the breaker it looks like an ganged 3A breaker such as :

ABB S23-D3

along with a readily available 3-pole cam switch would probably work. Still looking/hoping for Original Equipment

Rich L said:

Oh, I definitely want it to be usable! If I ultimately cannot find the replacement part - which I'm hoping someone can point me to a European supplier - I will be happy to replace this switch/breaker with a separate 3-pole cam switch and a separate overload breaker group (not fuses) which I could mount externally. This switch is the only thing wrong with this machine. Everything else works, is completely usable, nothing is worn out, and it is extremely well made.

Great suggestions so far so thanks for that.

Click to expand...

Hear yah on CB's not fuses. They exist if you are forced to split the function. Back when I still needed such goods in lower Amp trip-points, I sourced them from a Marine & Aviation supply house.

i suppose the question is: are you repairing an old machine for service.... or restoring a '66 corvette to
vintage glory ....

you could- mount a panel box with the the starter relay, overload and breaker stuff , anywhere - on the back of the
machine...on the wall...floor..whatever. use the boogered switch to trigger the remote motor controls. it will
look stock, the switch will only have to control a 1/10 amp or so to the relay coils .

that's how i control the 5 hp 3ph motor on my lathe.

Rich L said:

Oh, I definitely want it to be usable! If I ultimately cannot find the replacement part - which I'm hoping someone can point me to a European supplier - I will be happy to replace this switch/breaker with a separate 3-pole cam switch and a separate overload breaker group (not fuses) which I could mount externally. This switch is the only thing wrong with this machine. Everything else works, is completely usable, nothing is worn out, and it is extremely well made.

Great suggestions so far so thanks for that.

Click to expand...

Telemechanique GV2P series will cover the requirement for overload protection and rotary control. IIRC ABB did a similar product. Both brands are part of a modular system that allows auxillary contacts and shunts to be fitted for full control.
There is or was also a range of extension controls available so the braeker could be base mounted on a panel- this would allow the faceplate of the old switch to be used.
Schneider has recently started making GV2 stuff in China so I'd be looking at ABB's offerings or NOS on Ebay.

PKZ
What you need is called a PKZ You have them with a rotating knob and 2 buttons They come with or without auxillary contacts And you can ad a divice that switches it in the Off position if it does not detects current
I have several of these CMC switches laying around All used ones
I can check Amps on monday

Peter

tnmgcarbide said:

i suppose the question is: are you repairing an old machine for service.... or restoring a '66 corvette to
vintage glory ....

you could- mount a panel box with the the starter relay, overload and breaker stuff , anywhere - on the back of the
machine...on the wall...floor..whatever. use the boogered switch to trigger the remote motor controls. it will
look stock, the switch will only have to control a 1/10 amp or so to the relay coils .

that's how i control the 5 hp 3ph motor on my lathe.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. Just cleaning and repairing as this machine is in great shape and there's no need for additional restoration. Just hoping that I can find original equipment to minimize my effort and to maintain aesthetics. If I have to re-engineer this switch, then so be it. Not a huge deal.

Greenwud said:

Telemechanique GV2P series will cover the requirement for overload protection and rotary control. IIRC ABB did a similar product. Both brands are part of a modular system that allows auxillary contacts and shunts to be fitted for full control.
There is or was also a range of extension controls available so the braeker could be base mounted on a panel- this would allow the faceplate of the old switch to be used.
Schneider has recently started making GV2 stuff in China so I'd be looking at ABB's offerings or NOS on Ebay.

Click to expand...

Peter from Holland said:

PKZ
What you need is called a PKZ You have them with a rotating knob and 2 buttons They come with or without auxillary contacts And you can ad a divice that switches it in the Off position if it does not detects current
I have several of these CMC switches laying around All used ones
I can check Amps on monday

Peter

Click to expand...

Yes, I've seen the PKZ and GVP2 style switches in my searches for the capability I want and thank you for confirming their functionality. Of course, I'd have to make a faceplate or something for mounting, but, yep, they'd work. Eaton, Schneider are potential US suppliers of these switches.

----

I have a question that I've been unable to find an answer for: A lot of switches that come up in my searches are "motor starter switches." I don't know what that really means and I can't find a blurb on how they operate. Is there some momentary contact that these swithces make to "start" a motor? Excuse my ignorance on this. This switch I need does not start any motor, it merely routes power to the rest of the electronics and relays. Nothing moves or operates or is supposed to operate when I throw this switch. The motor starter (on/off) switches are independent pushbuttons on the side of the machine. A motor starter switch was suggested early on in this thread - My thought is that is not what I need. The PKZ and GVP2 switches are called "motor protective circuit breakers" in the catalogs and searches I've done. It, indeed, sounds like these are precisely what I need. True??

Peter, if you find a CMC Tp 10H in your pile with the 2-3,2A rating -- Hallelujah!

What you want is a "Motor Starter" that uses "heaters". These are what pop the overload switch, it resets by, moving the control to off then on and your back in business. The heaters are Amp rated, so you pick a heater to match the motor/load.
I have a couple different MS units, GE makes all sizes. Then you buy the heaters to carry the load.

In you case you can wire in a rotary switch to match the appearance you want, then a cabinet mounted contactor and overloads. That stuff is all over surplus and Ebay sites. I only buy that stuff new, but the price is less than 25% the List price.

BTW these switches are also no-load switches
A safety device for when the machine gets unplugged while running it doet not start running when you plug it in again On a PKZ you need a auxillary device that you can connect to it

Peter

This is functionally similar to what you are looking for . . . no doubt you have seen similar

* SPRECHER+SCHUH KTA7-25S-1.6A MOTOR STARTER ADJUSTABLE CIRCUIT BREAKER | eBay

Yes


Thats what we call a PKZ over here But without that auxillary device it does not have the no-load switch I mentioned in my previous post

Rich L said:

.... but not with the correct current spec which is 2 - 3.2 A.... (is this adjustable??)

Click to expand...

Yes. Can't tell you where, though. My experience is with European standalone thermal protectors which are also adjustable. Look for an adjusting screw. Or take it apart. You've nothing to lose.

A loose wire on a terminal can cause premature tripping, too. You say you put another switch in and it worked fine. Did you try the old switch again?