OT Copyright infringement?

I know this is way off machine based question, but so far, any question I have asked on any subject has at least a few experts, so here goes!

There is a hymn with the title of "Nearer my God to Thee" that I would like to propose to the choir director to adapt to our male chorus. Seeing how the hymn is printed into many church hymnals it would seem to be in the public domain, but is there a way to find out? Also, to make it work for our group, sheet music would have to be ordered, and then adapted to a soloist(me,probably) meaning key change possibly and some other small changes. Would these changes to published music be infringement? By the way, we are a non-profit chorus, just ask for a free-will contribution at our concerts.

Anybody who is a Tennessee Ernie Ford fan has probably heard the arrangement I am thinking of, me being a baritone/bass it fits me just fine!

Dale Nelson

Just because it's in a book (hymnal) doesn't mean it's public domain, unless there's some tradition of putting only public domain material in hymnals that I don't know about. Look in the front and see if there's a copyright. But the selling of the hymnals does sort of imply a right to at least church performance. (If I sell you a book of sing-along songs you are obviously allowed to sing them.)

The sheet music would be another "copy" and should in theory require payment, just like it's not kosher to photocopy the hymnal (unless it's declared open source, or your church owns it, or something like that.)

Googling for the title yields:
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/n/m/nmgtthee.htm

With lyrics from 1841, which I think implies public domain....
(I'm not a lawyer and do not play one on TV.)

I don't think changing a key or note or wording will get you around "taking advantage" of copywrited music. Try to go to the source where the music is owned by and see what they have to offer. Usually this type of music, you pay a one time fee of $25-$2,000 maybe less, maybe more, and they give you a license number that has to be posted at the bottom of the sheet music being used. Most of them are very generous, but don't get caught with out their permission, it could hurt!

For a number of years back in my "past life", I was a studio musician out in L.A. Also worked doing the music prep on the music scores and arrangements that were used in movies, TV, commercials, live performance, on records, etc. Everything from the Boston Pops to Count Basie, Barry Manilow to Tower of Power. Olivia Newton-John to Cher, Tonight Show (Carson period) to commercials for the old (before Steve Wynn) Golden Nugget in Las Vegas.

If you transpose (change) keys, re-arrange or edit a piece of music, you will be safe as long as you don't publish the modified piece without permission. Even though/if it has a valid copyright. Done all the time.

Usually, where you get into problems is performing a song in a public venue (concert, restaurant, bar, etc.) without paying for the usage fees/rights do so. Much the same situation when it comes to copyright as it would be if playing a movie on a DVD in a bar for it's customers or at a large public gathering.

As far as performing a from a hymn book in church.... no problem either. An exception would be if a hymn has a currently in force copyright, and the hymn is performed as part of a broadcast (TV or radio) ministry, or a service held in a large venue like a football stadium.... Unless the copyright holder has waived their performance fee(s).

alg4884

There's no way anybody could hold a valid copyright to a song published 150 years ago.

You may find it in a compilation such as a hymnal on which the publisher asserts copyright, but that pertains to the entire publication as an entity. It does NOT convey or assert copyright on the individual hymns in the book.

The copyright law as it existed before the DMCA (1998) conveyed copyright for a duration of ?25? years (IIRC, don't quote me). It could be renewed for a second similar period. After that the work became public domain. So anything published before 1940 or so is public domain by law. Once a work passes into the public domain, no entity can re-assert copyright over that material.

Check out the FAQ and other info at the Copyright Office page www.copyright.gov

- Leigh

Mickey mouse and other Disney characters predate 1940 and still have copyright protection, due to a series of extensions granted by congress.
Lots of controversy over this.
Hard to imagine it applies to a 19th century hymn though

Just for future reference, because it doesn’t appear to apply to this hymn , the magic year is 1922. Copyrights used to be valid for a term of 28 years, IIRC (and I’m not looking it up, go to the Library of Congress web site and wade through all the verbiage). They could be renewed once, for a total of 56 years. In the late sixties Congress revised the law, granting a longer term, now up to 95 years from the death of the creator in some instances (that should keep Mickey safe for a few more years). In the mid seventies Congress amended the law to grant automatic extensions to any copyrights that were in force, or would have been in force if they had been renewed. That means that anything that was copyrighted after 1922 is still copyrighted now, and will be for a few more years.

However, there is a catch. Copyrights are now automatic as soon as the creator “fixes the work in tangible form”, if I remember the language correctly. That means that anything a person creates essentially has a copyright from the moment it is created, with no need to register the work, although registering goes a long way toward “perfecting “ your claim. It wasn’t always so. Under the old law, something was not copyrighted unless someone had filed for the copyright; and the automatic renewals of the seventies did not create any new copyrights, only extended previous ones.

I run into this issue with old railroad engineering materials all the time. Books, journals, and the trade press were copyright as a matter of course. But internal documents such as engineering drawings and schematic seldom were, and are all now in the public domain.

[FONT=&quot]Dennis[/FONT]

Copyright is a rort...I can patent something but I will only be protected for 10 or 15 years, but I can string a few words together and be protected for my entire life plus 75 years here in Oz...

.RC. said:

Copyright is a rort...I can patent something but I will only be protected for 10 or 15 years, but I can string a few words together and be protected for my entire life plus 75 years here in Oz...

Click to expand...

I think thats because they serve two different purposes. The primary purpose of copyright is to protect an authors work, unlike patents which are also designed to foster innovation.

If I create a new widget to solve problem A, and you want to compete with me, you better find another way solving problem A. Chances are you are going to try and find a better way to solve problem A.

Ofcourse if my widget was the only way to solve problem A, and my patent would not expire for 100 years, I would have monopolistic control over problem A. With a short patent expiration, my widget technology is available at expiration for others to innovate ontop of, or just use.

The short patent life seems to be a compromise between protecting ones R&D costs and fostering innovation.

How much would we be paying for pharmaceuticals if generics didn't exist?

OTOH I cant help but think of China building a large portion of their economy off of western R&D money. If you dont follow the rules...

Regarding the original question, I may be mistaken, but I think that if a work is copyrighted, the hymnal that contains it would have to mention this somewhere, either in a separate list of copyright holders, or on the page that contains the hymn.

A new arrangement of a public domain work can still be copyrighted too.

I would do as you wish untill you get a cese and desist order, you are out nothing up untill then, at that point you can return a letter stating you will no longer do it and that will be the end of it, but as mentioned above I doubt you will ever hear anything from anyone. Sing your song and have fun doing it!

On this subject, how did "Happy Birthday" ever get copyrighted? I understand that's why it isn't sung in restaurants by the waitstaff anymore.

Mudflap said:

On this subject, how did "Happy Birthday" ever get copyrighted? I understand that's why it isn't sung in restaurants by the waitstaff anymore.

Click to expand...

YOu can get a fairly concise version of the story here: http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp

Re Copyright Infringement

swellwelder said:

I know this is way off machine based question, but so far, any question I have asked on any subject has at least a few experts, so here goes!

There is a hymn with the title of "Nearer my God to Thee" that I would like to propose to the choir director to adapt to our male chorus. Seeing how the hymn is printed into many church hymnals it would seem to be in the public domain, but is there a way to find out? Also, to make it work for our group, sheet music would have to be ordered, and then adapted to a soloist(me,probably) meaning key change possibly and some other small changes. Would these changes to published music be infringement? By the way, we are a non-profit chorus, just ask for a free-will contribution at our concerts.

Anybody who is a Tennessee Ernie Ford fan has probably heard the arrangement I am thinking of, me being a baritone/bass it fits me just fine!

Dale Nelson

Click to expand...

Hi Guy's
Firstly, I'm a new member so greetings from the U.K.

Hi Dale,
From my printing days I remember a few people getting sued for copying hymns without permission, I think they where used for wedding stationery but not too sure.

I think in the U.K. it is the "University Press" Oxford who hold a great deal of the copyrights to hymns. At the bottom of the hymn it will show who wrote the hymn and give a reference to the copyright holder.
I tried to check this for you last night but could not find the page in the hymnal it was refering to, you may have better luck.

B.F.N.
Gerry