OT? - Going to my first auction

So I've been keeping my eyes open for local auction listings, and just came across one for a shop that went out of business about 15 minutes away from where I work. I'm registered for the preview day and the auction itself.

My current plan is to make a spreadsheet of all the lots and do some research as to what the stuff is currently selling for through eBay and local CraigsList ads (I know exact matches won't exist, but I should be able to get some decent comparisons.)

I'm also not planning on buying anything big - I'm very conservative when it comes to finances, and I don't need anything. But if one of the Mazak Quickturns is going to a scrapper for $200 bucks, I might have to step in and rescue it.

In short, my goal is to prepare and attend for the experience, and potentially steal something if it's going ridiculously cheap. Yes, I know rigging is expensive (maybe more so than the machines themselves.)

What type of things should I look out for? Is used tooling worth anything? Equipment is predominately Mazak (including a Mazak Mate Toolroom lathe) with a couple old Bridgeports and assorted surface grinders thrown in. Pretty typical small shop for around here, really.

Any words of advice from you old auction pros?

Thanks all!

Edit: Yes, I have searched for 'Auction' on this forum to see what has already been discussed, but mostly the posts are very old, or not particularly relevant. If I missed something that addresses my question specifically, please point me in the right direction.

Remember to figure in the value of your time & effort, taxes, fees, esp the the buyers premium fee, when figuring the "cost" of an item. Pretty basic, you probably already understand that.

It helps to be social with others on previewing day.

If there is a lot of tools you want and notice someone else is eyeing the lot ask them what they are interested in on the lot. Might be the least valuable thing in your opinion but will save a bidding war if you can come to an agreement.

Take lunch and some snacks, especially if you're fussy. Food at auctions sucks.

If you like hotdogs, you should be OK with lunch. Scan the crowd before the bidding starts. After the auction begins, you should be able to pick out the dealers, the auctioneer's shills, the owner's shills, the knackers, and the guys like yourself. Most bargains occur at the very first, and late in the afternoon, when interest lags. You can get a bargain. If you don't need it for your shop, you should know who is looking for one. Of late, the dealers bail out early, and the knackers buy most lots. The guys like you buy the smalls. Good Luck, and Regards, Clark

Know the market value but remember the value to yourself is what is important. After buying a $2000 mill for $200 I was asked "what is that worth" I said "as much as one will pay for it".

Go to your first auction and buy nothing or very little. Get the feel of how auctions operate, learn the language and make a few friends. Talk to others often but don't say anything important.

Be aware of who is around you. There are others who want to know what you are interested in and how much you are willing to pay. Disclose neither or exaggerate in your favor. Act a little uneducated and don't say the things you said in your first post. Listen and watch others congregate around the things you are interested in. Don't stake out something you want. Shill bidders, owners and even sometimes the auctioneers will run the price up having that knowledge.

For large items stand behind the crowd so you can see other bidders. learn to read their body language, kinda like playing poker. if you suspect shill bidding then pause your bidding and come back just before the gavel drops.

For small items and box lots get up front. Look at the contents of every box as it comes up. Many times buyers will move items around or hide the valuables under something worth much less. If you don't like how items are grouped then tell the auctioneer or his helper.

Lots of fun, great way to get bargains, have fun.

Auctions can be a lot of fun, they can turn up some real bargains or they can be a complete waste of your time. In short, they are completely unpredictable. In my view they're (usually) not the place to buy something that you really need--too easy to get caught up in a buyer's frenzy. Most of the bargains I've found were unplanned, impulse purchases.

It is really important to know the "street" price of anything you're bidding on--set an upper bid limit and don't go over it. Having said that, I can almost guarantee you that there isn't a single one of us who hasn't got caught up in a bidding war and ended up spending more than they planned to--it's human nature to want to "win" and that's exactly what the auctioneers count on.....just take a little extra cash and enjoy the ride...

All good advice here, plus ;- count the numbers of digits you have on each hand and write it on the back with a sharpie.
When viewing mark your cat with YOUR max hammer price HAVING FIRST WORKED OUT THE TOTAL.

Practise keeping your hands jammed deep in to your pockets!

Once you've bought a lot, get a buddy to ride shotgun on it until you've paid.

Go in with your own rigger in mind

If you're purchasing machines, beware of riggers that slink around the auction. If a mover has so little to do they can waste a day hanging around an auction, you probably don't want them touching a machine, or giving you prices.

IME those are the ones that break things (smash mill handles, throw them away and then plead ignorance...rip feedscrews off lathes because they didn't block under forks when lifting the bed...)

It's been years since I used to regularly attend auctions but I'd say be prepared to not buy anything. In 2001 and 2009 when the economy was in the tank so many shops were going under that there were deals all over. It wouldn't surprise me if you watch the bidding and think the other bidders are out of their minds for how much they are willing to pay. Your plan of figuring out a fair market value of the lots you might bid upon is excellent and will keep you from paying far more at the auction than you could have gotten a similar item elsewhere.

Steve

If you have never been to an auction you are in for an education. First, who is the auctioneer?

Is he a local guy that has been in the area for decades? They tend to be the most honest, as they have been selling to the local folks for as long as they have been in business. They don't want to upset the regular customers.

Or is it large enough auction they brought in a "professional" auctioneer? Those guys are like carnival barkers, knowing they will be gone tomorrow and try to leave town with as much of the local money as possible. Like a teenager with a hard-on, they will say anything they think you want to hear, only to forget all about it the next morning.

My suggestion would be to leave your hands in your pockets as long as possible. You need some time to get a read on the auctioneer, his chant, his ringmen, and their procedure. The terms and conditions at the start of the auction can be important, even more so with shyster auctioneers. I have heard terms at the start that are completely different than those printed on the sale bill.

Thanks all! Lots of good advice so far, lots of things I hadn't considered. But help me out with this one:

sealark37 said:

Scan the crowd before the bidding starts. After the auction begins, you should be able to pick out the dealers, the auctioneer's shills, the owner's shills, the knackers, and the guys like yourself.

Click to expand...

What's a knacker?

If you can go a bit early and watch the auctioneers as their shills will be hanging around them and talking with them. Many dealers will but a machine and partner with each other of the expensive good stuff. If you see this you may just drop off. May auctioneers will "Pull a bid out of the attic" Or point to the back of the crowd and call a bid...but it's an old auctioneer trick to raise the price. Be sure to check if the rigger or machine mover is independent of the auction as many auction companies especially the big internet ones will only let one rigger company in the auction and they charge BIG money to load your machine. Many auctioneers mark up the fee by 10 to 20 %, so be sure to ask or read the bill or signs. Have fun and good luck Rich

Ive gone to the preview for one and asked for a quote from the two riggers who were there and setup shop as the "officially authorized riggers".

Dismount a 3T bridge crane from its runway rails, nothing special I could see...$7500. Other guys, $7300.

For interest I asked about loading a Bridgeport from level plant floor to my deckover trailer at same level outside in parking lot, likely 10 minutes or less with forklift...$700.

I didn't even go back for the auction.

JMO, but going uber-prepared with a spreadsheet of research is the wrong approach, as is hoping to find bargains. You should attend auctions for entertainment and somewhat-educational purposes, have fun, see what others are willing to pay, and what sort of characters show up. If somebody's wearing a shop shirt/hat, drink coffee with them and see if you can swap work/network/etc. If you happen onto some bargains in the process great, but dont get your hopes up too much. OTOH, if your research/previous buying methods have been craigslist or ebay you likely should have riggers on hand and expect to bring home the whole shop, both are sky-high multiples of reality regarding pricing IMHO.

Realistically, 90%+ of auctioneers arent worth bothering with, so be prepared for a few wasted trips/auctions to find a good one. There are quite a few varieties of scams that auctioneers play, everything from outright theft prior to the auction to shill bidding, to "refused" items not sold for some insanely high opening price (but really sold to the auctioneer or a shill via forged paperwork), to insanely large bid steps (car is work $5k, shill/auctioneer bids $3k then refuses bids less than $4-5k, ensuring the win). The recently popular one Ive seen the last ten'ish years is storage lockers that are gone through and "baited" with junk tools, empty cases/boxes, etc. You'll find about them as you go, but trust your instincts - if something about the auctioneer doesnt feel right it isnt. If the auctioneer is simply incompetent it can be frustrating, but lack of advertising or a lack of auctioneer's knowledge/description can be helpful at times. JMO, but the best auctioneers are fast, have an entertaining/goofy/charming personality, and are willing to sell anything/everything for whatever the crowd is willing to pay.

As this is your first, you might want to try a couple different bidding strategies to see what you like and what works. My first and foremost strategy is to try not to be seen bidding. Wherever Im at I try to hide my auction gestures, folks get nervous bidding against an unseen individual and conversely, they might try to run your bid up for fun if they see who it is. Secondly, I try to build a rapport with the auctioneer and force him to notice me by bidding on a few small items prior to bidding on more expensive items, it shows your serious about buying and gets them used to looking in your direction for bids. I also do this by bidding $1-2 on small items they cant sell otherwise, then scrapping/trashing those items later. Third, a higher starting bid tends to be less contested. Often a $5 or $10 starting bid might get run up to $75+ as folks get caught up in the bidding whereas with a $50 opener for the same item might be uncontested. Fourth and similarly, if you wait to bid and jump in at the last minute youll often win the item. There's a subtle psychology to it, some folks wont bid if they think youre willing to spend serious cash for an item.

The advice to go to auctions to watch the action is wise. I was tutored by an old retired prairie farmer. Yes there are disreputable auction outfits. He told me that he was at a farm auction and the farmers caught the auctioneer taking bids from the other side of the crowd. He was out of business within the year.
Don't spend all your cash immediately. Kick the tires so to speak. I have an acquaintance who bid on a lathe not noticing that the main motor and part of the gearbox was missing.
Best auction story I can tell was a large fiberglass plant went belly up. I was laid off and looking at these two chain blocks, one ton with trolley and about 15 foot fall. This guy I recognized walked up to me and started discussing the blocks. He had been sent by his boss to buy stuff. He asked me and I said I would not go much over 75 but since he was bidding I would not bid against him. The bidding starts several hours into it and my friend is bidding against a guy across the crowd. Keep in mind that with the number of lots the auctioneer had 20 seconds per lot to finish by 8:00 pm after starting at 8:00 am. The bidding is going up and it reaches 65. it is my friends turn to raise his card when someone tapped the opponent on the shoulder. He turned around, my friend bid, and when the guy was turned the auctioneer went "One, two, three, Sold!" "do you want one or both of them?" I nodded my head to my friend and I was the proud owner of a one ton hoist and trolley for 70 bills.
There were daggers coming out of that guy's eyes when he realized he lost the bid.
When I picked up my stuff the next day everyone was talking about one of the late night bids... Around midnight. A trucker saw the unfinished fiberglass hoods and wanted to bid on one. The auctioneer was blunt when he refused and told him they went as a group... all 130 hoods. Various axle configurations and models. The trucker ended up with the whole lot for 550 dollars. They sat in a field for several months and you could see how they slowly disappeared. That trucker must have made a killing selling to truck repair shops.

Once you do a couple of auctions it becomes a big game which can be a lot of fun. YOu do have to know what the value of the total value of the equipment or parts are worth. I have supplied a bunch of tooling and parts in my shop and also have a bunch of stuff I bought at low ball prices that I have not used and should sell off.
One little trick if you are needing a piece of equipment and the price is real low and there seams to be only one other bidder is to bid real fast for two or three bids and then suddenly stop. The shill is now stuck with the high bid with nobody else to bid.. I have done that more than once and at the end of the auction I got the piece for less than my last bid when the auctioneer had to get it sold.
AS far as riggers and moving equipment you need to get a firm price before the auction or know the riggers who will give you an honest price. It is common for riggers to give you one price and then after they move the stuff say that they didn't include one thing or another and the price is increased. I have had that happen a couple of times but got it settled out back to the original price quote.

At one small auction a number of years ago at a one owner shop that was closing down and the owner had a better job working for someone else I was buying most of the tooling and smaller stuff. I was probably the only commercial shop owner there. A cnc lathe came up for bid and I think the price was up to 6000.00 At that time I had a cell phone call and walked out of the building to take the call.
When I came back in the auctioneer was waiting for me to bid again. I didn't care if I got the thing or not, it was a Talisaka (sp?) cnc lathe in real good shape because it was an owner operator who took care of the machine. I got the thing for 8000.00 and sold it for 16000.00 three weeks later. Big machines go cheap but you got to have a place for them. I bought a K&T Moduline 15 years ago and finally got the thing installed last year. Real nice machine paid a total of 6000 for the machine 4 pallets and tombstones. Cost me the same amount to move it and probably 15000 to pour the pad, set it in place and get it running. That machine was bought by another company and never assembled which made it a lot cheaper to move.

John
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I have not been to a live auction for at least 7 years. There were some bargains there, but 90% of the equipment most likely went to a scrap yard. It was all WWII era turret lathes and mills. In fact, the old guy who owned the shop stopped the auction when his jig bore would not fetch $500.

I've never dealt with auction riggers. That could be a PITA.

Most times, auctioneers don't know much about what they sell. They group things together in a totally random pattern. The result is often that you get 10 pieces of junk to get one thing you want. They keep grouping things together until someone will buy it. Some will let you pick and choose items, but most will not.

I also hate when they make everyone wait until the very end to buy the decent stuff. It never fails that they will sell mill tooling first, but the mills will sell last. You end up there all day.

Lots of good stuff for you to read here.
I have been suffering from auction addictions for almost 30 years. I even worked for an auctioneer friend for a while helping him out.
Yes, you can find some great deals.
Yes, you can get straight up hosed if you are not careful.
Yes, you can find that "great deal" only to realize later that it is junk.
You might even find a quality item, that you need / want that sells for a fair price.
I have seen it all.
My .02,
Don't get too carried away, especially at your first sale. Some folks get caught up in the heat of bidding. Determine ahead of IME what the item is worth to you, and stick to your price.
Remember, that super deal could be missing a vital / expensive part. Allow for those things.
Regarding large items, check rigging ahead of time. Many auctions at commercial locations set up with one rigger, and one only. You might be forced to use that company to move your item.
I have seen that prices get crazy, but I have also been on the flip side. I bought an old LeBlond engine lathe at an auction several years ago. No designated rigger, just a guy there at the sale. I asked him how much to throw the lathe on my trailer.... $50 "DEAL" I said! Didn't give him time to reconsider. It only took him 10 minutes, but that number could easily have been higher.
Another thing... Anything you think comes as a "set", don't expect all the pieces. Socket sets, wrench sets, collet sets...you name it. Always seem to be missing something.
The regulars develop their own style, You will see some real characters... Watch, learn, laugh.

PS,
You asked if tooling is worth anything... Yes and no... Check prices on what you need. Some could be like gold.
If it is oddball stuff... 1, do you need it? 2, can you find it elsewhere? 3, what does it go for IF you can find it?

Talk to others often but don't say anything important.

Contrer. Share your knowledge when needed.

If you spot something like a 3 phase welder a farmer is looking at, let him know it is three phase. They do not want to fiddle fart around machines that require adapters or rpc's vfd's ect.

But they will buy them without the proper information.

Best let them know it is not worth their time.