OT- Oxygen tanks are Strong!

ponderingjunkman · Jan 5, 2012

Noticed an interesting phenomenon having to do with an old oxygen tank. I got this many years ago with some junk and want to get rid of it. The brass valve is missing, so not too long ago I put a funnel in it, and rolled it under the eaves of the shop. Rain filled it as planned, then it got cold! I was hoping that it would freeze and crack, but... (I still can't post pictures to a new post... :angry:

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ponderingjunkman · Jan 5, 2012

So here's what happened

So here is what happened:
The tank didn't break! The pressure pushed a column of ice up and out the top. The pictures were taken over a period of a few hours. Alot came out and broke off, as seen on the ground. That tank is some strong to contain the ice pressure- and direct it out the top!

I think I may roll it inside and let it thaw- then refill and put a pipe plug in and let it freeze again and see what happens. Anyway- hope you all find this interesting- I'm impressed!

CarlBoyd · Jan 5, 2012

ponderingjunkman said:
So here is what happened:
The tank didn't break! The pressure pushed a column of ice up and out the top. The pictures were taken over a period of a few hours. Alot came out and broke off, as seen on the ground. That tank is some strong to contain the ice pressure- and direct it out the top!

I think I may roll it inside and let it thaw- then refill and put a pipe plug in and let it freeze again and see what happens. Anyway- hope you all find this interesting- I'm impressed!

Your pictures prove that steel is stronger than ice.

I saw the same situation one cold morning on a hand rail. The upright pieces were hollow and for some reason had a hole near the top, and somehow had filled with water. 1st freezing night pushed little curls of ice out of about 50 in a row.

CarlBoyd

JMillar · Jan 5, 2012

Pretty cool - thanks for sharing. Let us know how the capped version fares.

Ciszewski · Jan 5, 2012

CarlBoyd said:
Your pictures prove that steel is stronger than ice.

Hello CarlBoyd
Quite a few years back I had built 2 cradles to pile the slabs in from the sawmill to be strapped with steel bands to form half cord bundles. they were made out of 2"x2"x0.250" tube with the top ends open. One fall they filled up with rain water & later in the winter they froze & some of them split open. This was a column of water 1.5"x1.5" with the top open, & it split 0.250" steel.

9100 · Jan 5, 2012

No surprise to anyone old enough to remember glass milk bottles delivered by a milkman. Every so often they would be left on the doorstep too long and freeze, growing columns of milk ice out the tops with caps on them. It usually broke the bottles, too. Your bottle should stand at least 3000 PSI. Ice has a number of forms. It would be interesting to see which one confining it to to 3000 PSI plus develops. Kurt Vonnegut destroyed the world with ice 9 in "Cat's Cradle".

Bill

AeroncaChamp · Jan 5, 2012

ponderingjunkman said:
...I think I may roll it inside and let it thaw- then refill and put a pipe plug in and let it freeze again and see what happens. Anyway- hope you all find this interesting- I'm impressed!

Geez, i dunno... Steel is pretty strong but have you seen the frozen grenade demo?

Prof. is going on about thermal coefficients... does the ball and ring demo, talks a little more then pauses to do a another demo... fills a grenade sized and shaped casting with water, and screws a plug into the hole. Drops it in the bottom of a an empty milk carton, fills the carton with liquid Nitrogen and *quickly* puts the metal trash can over it, puts a brick on top, puts a jumbo heavy duty rubbermaid gabage can over that. Watches for a few seconds, shrugs... and goes back to the lecture. Minute or so later, ka-BOOM. Nitrogen "smoke" all over the floor, he lifts the Rubbermaid trash can and the metal can is tipped over, grenade is reduced to shrapnel, and milk carton is shredded. Class dismissed and half the freshman physics students head back to the dorm to change their shorts.

Wonder if he's still doing that demo? I'll never forget that water expands as it freezes and just about every other material contracts as they are cooled. The forces involved if you completely filled and froze a plugged gas bottle would be incredible. I wonder ...

9100 · Jan 5, 2012

Don't put the tanks where they can damage anything.

gbent · Jan 5, 2012

IIRC, it takes about 1300 psi per degree to keep water from solidifying, and then that will only buy you about 4-5 degrees F.

jkopel · Jan 5, 2012

If you try this again, you might not want to have it so close to your shop. :nutter:

Ice Bomb - YouTube

beech · Jan 6, 2012

They certainly are strong, you should see the bowling ball mortars made from 3AA2400's. Search YouTube for "bowling ball mortar". (there is generally a powder pocket welded in the bottom.)

willbird · Jan 6, 2012

AeroncaChamp said:
Geez, i dunno... Steel is pretty strong but have you seen the frozen grenade demo?

Prof. is going on about thermal coefficients... does the ball and ring demo, talks a little more then pauses to do a another demo... fills a grenade sized and shaped casting with water, and screws a plug into the hole. Drops it in the bottom of a an empty milk carton, fills the carton with liquid Nitrogen and *quickly* puts the metal trash can over it, puts a brick on top, puts a jumbo heavy duty rubbermaid gabage can over that. Watches for a few seconds, shrugs... and goes back to the lecture. Minute or so later, ka-BOOM. Nitrogen "smoke" all over the floor, he lifts the Rubbermaid trash can and the metal can is tipped over, grenade is reduced to shrapnel, and milk carton is shredded. Class dismissed and half the freshman physics students head back to the dorm to change their shorts.

Wonder if he's still doing that demo? I'll never forget that water expands as it freezes and just about every other material contracts as they are cooled. The forces involved if you completely filled and froze a plugged gas bottle would be incredible. I wonder ...

That is kind of "out there" due to the fact that the grenade casting is designed to fragment and create high velocity projectiles when a HIGH EXPLOSIVE inside is set off. Ice might store more energy before it burst than a liquid would, but I doubt that it packs the punch RDX does.

Keith Krome · Jan 6, 2012

I think the brittleness of CI is what makes the demonstration impressive. Due to the high temperature gradient (when frozen with LN2 or Dry-ice/alcohol solution) the CI might undergo a phase transformation, making it even more brittle. (I haven't researched the characteristics of CI for this post).

I would think that a high pressure (~3000psi) gas bottle would be much more ductile and simply split with a very loud crack, assuming it was filled to the brim with water. Any air space would provide additional energy.

You are essentially doing a hydrotest to failure with the freezing of water, ergo, no significant energy release, just the built up tensile stresses in the steel.

The CI "ice bombs" are specifically for dramatic effect, IMHO.

Robert Campbell Jr. · Jan 6, 2012

Keith Krome said:
I think the brittleness of CI is what makes the demonstration impressive. Due to the high temperature gradient (when frozen with LN2 or Dry-ice/alcohol solution) the CI might undergo a phase transformation, making it even more brittle. (I haven't researched the characteristics of CI for this post).

I would think that a high pressure (~3000psi) gas bottle would be much more ductile and simply split with a very loud crack, assuming it was filled to the brim with water. Any air space would provide additional energy.

You are essentially doing a hydrotest to failure with the freezing of water, ergo, no significant energy release, just the built up tensile stresses in the steel.

The CI "ice bombs" are specifically for dramatic effect, IMHO.

Plus 1 except that I don't believe it would, "split with a very loud crack". More like a pronounced "tink" and to no advantage if the goal is to reduce the mass into managable pieces.

Bob

DDoug · Jan 6, 2012

Keith Krome said:
I think the brittleness of CI is what makes the demonstration impressive. Due to the high temperature gradient (when frozen with LN2 or Dry-ice/alcohol solution) the CI might undergo a phase transformation, making it even more brittle. (I haven't researched the characteristics of CI for this post).

I would think that a high pressure (~3000psi) gas bottle would be much more ductile and simply split with a very loud crack, assuming it was filled to the brim with water. Any air space would provide additional energy.

You are essentially doing a hydrotest to failure with the freezing of water, ergo, no significant energy release, just the built up tensile stresses in the steel.

The CI "ice bombs" are specifically for dramatic effect, IMHO.

True, but what are the charpy numbers for that steel at that temp.
Impact strength rolls off quickly when the temp drops.

Robert Campbell Jr. · Jan 6, 2012

digger doug said:
True, but what are the charpy numbers for that steel at that temp.
Impact strength rolls off quickly when the temp drops.

What temp? We're talking about a sealed steel tank with water in it, set outside in the winter, right?

Just how cold does it get in "Cairo, NY" and would the temp have to dip to the lowest ever recorded to crack a sealed bottle with frozen water?

There is a point not far below 0° Celsius, where contained, (can't split with fissures) water-ice quits expanding.

Bob

ponderingjunkman · Jan 6, 2012

Thanks for everyone's observations! When this thing is corked, I think I will take it down over the hill into the woods so that if it does let go with enthusiasm, no harm should be done. Here in Cairo, NY- about 2.5 hours north of NY city, it was 9 degrees F the other morning. Cold! My intent is not to blow it up- just wanted to see if it would crack. I just didn't expect the extrusion process to manifest itself! I wonder if the acetylene tank is as strong... :confused:

Ron Hofer · Jan 6, 2012

This all reminds me of Click and Clack listing the top ten 'last words.' Number one was "Hey guys, watch this!"

oldbikerdude37 · Jan 6, 2012

I bet the tank will bulge but not fail.

Mice the od and mic it after the water is frozen. It sure as hell will not explode. It may look pregnant at best.

rke[pler · Jan 6, 2012

I agree with the "crack with a 'tink' sound". I think O2 tanks like that are chrome-moly similar to 4130, and 4130 dies make that sounds when they 'pop' at 180K psi. 'tink' and there's a bunch-o-work waiting for you.

Besides, one the crack relieves the pressure there's nothing left as pressure. That's why you hydrotest tanks instead of aerotest - can't compress water significantly.

OT- Oxygen tanks are Strong!

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