Price and performance of ER-16 collets and chucks

Im' starting this new thread on ER-16 collets and chucks with something I wrote in a previous thread about the quality/price of boring bars:

opscimc said:

--with chuck on 3/4" straight shank--
ETM (MSC), 0.0004" TIR, set of 10 ER-16 collets, $543
ETM (Enco), same as above, $400
Shars, no fractional set, but interestingly their metric 10 piece set with chuck states TIR 0.15mm (=0.006"), $100

--without chuck--
ETM (MSC), (no TIR spec in catalog, but presumably 0.0004" as above), set of 10, $388
Erickson (MSC), (no TIR spec in catalog) set of 12, $346
Interstate (MSC), (no TIR spec in catalog) set of 10, $231
Enco (Enco), (no TIR spec in catalog), set of 10, $164
Accu-Collets (US Shop Tools), 0.0005" or better TIR, set of 11, $154
Shars, 0.0003" TIR, set of 7, $65
Chinese (eBay), set of 9, $25 including shipping

So, does anyone have experience with the stuff US Shop Tools sells? Their price and specs, if accurate, give the best price/performance of any. Other than the $25 eBay set, that is.

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Making a long story short for now, I need a set that I only will use a few times a year, but that I need to have no worse than ~0.001" TIR when I do use them. Because of other tolerances involved, it would be a waste of money to buy collets with 0.0002" TIR, because that precision would be lost by other parts of the system. No one replied to my question about US Shop Tools, so I decided to buy the $164 import Enco set with a U.S.-made ER-16 collet chuck with straight shank (i.e. shank into mill collet into mill spindle, hence the buildup of tolerances). They arrived today, and this will be the first installment of what I found. The Chinese collets were, as expected, packaged in a cheap wooden box. However, unlike what you may be expecting, the U.S.-made collet chuck is defective.

My first couple of tries found TIRs >0.007" for the 1/8" collet, which seemed impossible even for the cheapest of Chinese collets. It took me a few minutes before I identified the problem. The nut on the collet chuck has an internal ring machined into it intended to help remove the collets, and it is totally out of alignment with the bore. I don't even see how they machined it so off center, so my first thought was it is a separate ring that is stuck in its groove (despite it appearing to be one piece). Bypassing Enco, I called the manufacturer directly, who confirmed the nut is a single machined piece. I took a picture with my iphone through one eyepiece of my stereomicroscope that I sent them, and they promised to send me a new one (the photo isn't of a quality worth posting here, but they know what they are looking at so it is clear to them).

At this point I went with mid-priced items but received a defectively manufactured U.S. part and a set of Chinese collets whose TIR I can't check as yet. If I actually needed these ER-16 collets for waiting job, I would be dead in the water. To be continued...

the ring is supposed to be off center. and this isn't the place for discussion of your endless race to find the cheapest crap, especially If you cant be bothered to find out what the parts are supposed to look like.

I built my own ER 40 chuck for my SB lathe and it works perfect. USA Made too...Bob

dsergison said:

the ring is supposed to be off center. and this isn't the place for discussion of your endless race to find the cheapest crap, especially If you cant be bothered to find out what the parts are supposed to look like.

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Hey, it does click into place. Thank you very much. However, if you re-read my post you will see I called the manufacturer, described the part, emailed them a photo of the part, and they said it was defective and would be sending me a new one. So, I did bother to find out what the parts are supposed to look like, and was given the wrong information by the manufacturer.

As for looking for the cheapest crap, no, I'm looking for the best price/performance. If you look at the prices I posted above, the set I bought was in the middle of the pack. Neither did I buy the cheapest chuck. Also, there was a lot of interest in the types of information I posted on boring bars in an earlier post, so it seems quite a few people think this actually is the place to post such a discussion.

It's very easy for people who aren't interested in any given topic, including this one -- don't open the thread. If reading any thread irritates someone, they really should just pass it over and go on to a thread that interests them. As long as there are quite a few people who are interested in the topic, it doesn't seem reasonable to stop posting because a few others are not interested.

opscimc said:

Hey, it does click into place. Thank you very much. However, if you re-read my post you will see I called the manufacturer, described the part, emailed them a photo of the part, and they said it was defective and would be sending me a new one. So, I did bother to find out what the parts are supposed to look like, and was given the wrong information by the manufacturer.

As for looking for the cheapest crap, no, I'm looking for the best price/performance. If you look at the prices I posted above, the set I bought was in the middle of the pack. Neither did I buy the cheapest chuck. Also, there was a lot of interest in the types of information I posted on boring bars in an earlier post, so it seems quite a few people think this actually is the place to post such a discussion.

It's very easy for people who aren't interested in any given topic, including this one -- don't open the thread. If reading any thread irritates someone, they really should just pass it over and go on to a thread that interests them. As long as there are quite a few people who are interested in the topic, it doesn't seem reasonable to stop posting because a few others are not interested.

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Dude this stuff isn't that important. Buy decent tooling and call it good. You're in a home shop for christ's sake. Any old shit will probably work fine for your needs.

John Welden said:

You're in a home shop for christ's sake. Any old shit will probably work fine for your needs.

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Not at all true. Also, I have a shop at work, so what I post is relevant to what I buy for it. But, beyond that, although any old tooling would do for some of the things I do in my home shop (and for my work shop, for that matter), a fair fraction of what I do with it is pretty high precision. I'll bet many people who work in for-profit machine shops take what their DROs tell them at face value. Because I sometimes need to work to a high level of precision, I carefully measured the absolute accuracy as well as the differential thermal expansion of my home mill's DRO scales with respect to the iron in the mill. As a result of such calibrations, I could make two 10"-long Al parts 30oF apart in temperature and have them identical to within 0.0005" when equilibrated to the same temperature.

One of my reasons for building my home shop is so I could approach making some instruments for my work more slowly than is possible with my work shop (which I share with someone who works for me). I can leave things set up as long as I need in my home shop. So, yes, it is a home shop, but a fair fraction of what I make in it is "hand made," not "home made." And it's hand made to a higher precision than is routinely done by many professional shops.

well you obviously did not talk to a directly to a product engineer who knew his shit. you got some new guy. or someone in sales. etc...

look REALLY closely. off center. it helps snapping it in and out.
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/images/client/ER_Collet_Mounting.jpg


see note regarding eccentric snap ring.
http://www.craftsmanindustries.com/colletinsert.gif

or here.
http://www.cartertools.com/ersp05.jpg

now call them and apologize

I'm not an internet tough guy. or a real tough guy. and I'm guilty of the same penny pinching shit posts here. I'm just saying, you limited out for the week. and to cool down before freaking out about your parts.

dsergison said:

well you obviously did not talk to a directly to a product engineer ... and to cool down before freaking out about your parts.

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Whoever I spoke to said they were the person I should ask my technical question of, and it's now clear they gave me incorrect information. But, I didn't freak out. I calmly and without any irritation whatever explained the issue to the company person and emailed the photo to illustrate it, and they cheerfully said they would send a new one on Monday. I didn't report it to Enco, and didn't even plan to, since even if this were a defective part, there was no reason to risk causing problems with them with Enco's buyer. I even thanked you for telling me the part was supposed to be made that way, which caused me to go back and try inserting the collet in the nut, and then that assembly into the main holder, rather than putting the collet in the chuck and then adding the nut as I had previously. As soon as I realized it was working as it should, I sent an email to the company explaining the situation, thanking them for offering to send a new nut, but telling them that it wasn't necessary.

I have used lots of chucks of various sizes and kinds over the years, but I can't think of another that required first snapping the collet into the tapered nut in the way this ER does in order for it to funciton. Sorry if this strikes some of you as a rookie mistake, but it is what it is.

opscimc said:

I have used lots of chucks of various sizes and kinds over the years, but I can't think of another that required first snapping the collet into the tapered nut in the way this ER does in order for it to funciton.

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MANY collets that have a shallow taper are designed this way (ER, TG, Acura-Flex) to allow the nut to be used as a collet extraction tool when removing a dull tool.

TSD Universal Engineering Acura-Flex Collets

Bull shit alert.

Philabuster said:

MANY collets that have a shallow taper are designed this way (ER, TG, Acura-Flex) to allow the nut to be used as a collet extraction tool when removing a dull tool.

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Yes, I've now searched around and see that. It's completely obvious to me in retrospect. However, I have never used any of those collets. I have used shallow taper collets before (Brown & Sharpe, R8 and 5C immediately come to mind), all of which extract differently than ER. Several types of electrical connectors, both DIN and Mil-spec, have screw on connectors to seat them, and also extract in the same way a 5C collet does.

It is very best and attractive one but the price does matter for every one and specially for me.This one is best with having all intellectual property and copyright.

grade said:

It is very best and attractive one but the price does matter for every one and specially for me.This one is best with having all intellectual property and copyright.

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Huh?

opscimc said:

It's very easy for people who aren't interested in any given topic, including this one -- don't open the thread. If reading any thread irritates someone, they really should just pass it over and go on to a thread that interests them. As long as there are quite a few people who are interested in the topic, it doesn't seem reasonable to stop posting because a few others are not interested.

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It has nothing to do with that.

It's the simple fact that you try to come across as an expert with experience when in fact it's quite apparent from reading your posts you have no clue.

The time and effort you are wasting on trying to save a few bucks on some collets could be better spent on gaining more knowledge and experience.

Best Regards,
Russ

I've seen errors in machining in ER collets, where the groove in the collet is slightly out of standard position (axially displaced) and this causes a slight collapse of the collet after it is snapped into position. The result was that the collet would not accommodate the nominal maximum shank OD that it should have.

In another case, the nose of the collet was slightly too long and would not allow the collet to close to its minimum clamping diameter.

And incorrect assembly of ER collets is common, too. The collet must be tipped into the nut before screwing the nut onto the body. The clown I bought my Haas from never did this, and ended up ruining 6 out of 6 ER16 holders by cracking the taper. And I bet he suffered inordinate tool runout for his trouble as well.

I've never seen an ER collet itself with significant runout unless the bore of the collet gets roughed up by a shattered carbide. I always meticulously clean the nut, the threads and wipe the taper in the nut clean with a Qtip to remove any sign of metallic fines. Ruin any of those surfaces, and its going to compromise the collet chuck.

Edit, I think it is fine for the OP to attempt his reviews of these products. If it wastes anyone's time, then do not participate in this thread. Does Consumer Reports waste their time testing consumer products?

wrustle said:

It's the simple fact that you try to come across as an expert with experience when in fact it's quite apparent from reading your posts you have no clue.

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Sorry you feel that way, but I don't try to come across as anything. On any forum participants have to separate the wheat from the chaff, and usually it doesn't take long to decide whose posts to pay attention to and whose to ignore. It is interesting that you've concluded from my posts that I lack much experience or knowlege but, for you, I'm in the latter category.

I think that what I am to understand is that the original run-out was due to your misunderstanding of how to correctly assemble an ER chuck & collet? Or was there an error in the chuck manufacturing?

So, what is the result or are you still waiting for parts?

FWIW, I bought my ETM ER40 chucks for about $150 each ($139.95 - $149.95) though it has been a few years, though the damn wrench was a $30 extra cost option! Since I seen no advantage to buying inaccurate collets, I bought a "few" decent ones at the time in the sizes needed, and have added the rest over the years.

smt

stephen thomas said:

I think that what I am to understand is that the original run-out was due to your misunderstanding of how to correctly assemble an ER chuck & collet?

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That's correct. Entirely my fault.

stephen thomas said:

Since I seen no advantage to buying inaccurate collets, I bought a "few" decent ones at the time in the sizes needed, and have added the rest over the years.

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I agree that there's no point buying collets you know will be inaccurate, but the issue is whether paying more gets additional accuracy and, if it does, how much. Although made in China, the collet set I bought is MSC/Enco's "Interstate" brand, selling for a lot more than the cheapest sets, but ~1/3 less than MSC charges for Erickson. So, the question to be answered is how much quality control is exercised over these imported collets? If it turns out to be not enough, I'll send them back.

If I were buying these collets for my Bridgeport at work I would buy an ER-16 chuck with R8 shank. However, I'm buying these primarily for use at home, and my Millrite has a B&S#9 spindle, so my only choice is to get a straight shank. I still can use it at work, but in both cases I have to live with the possible extra runout the additional collet introduces. Because of this, it would be silly for me to spend significantly more to get a collet/chuck system with 0.0002" TIR. But, it also would be silly to spend any money at all if it gets me a collet/chuck system with TIR no better than my Jacobs chucks.

As for buying buying expensive collets for the few sizes I need, this is actually the reason I paid more to get a U.S.-made chuck. I now have the complete (Chinese) ER-16 collet set so, in principle, I'm ready for anything. If I need a collet for something especially precise and it turns out the measured TIR is good enough, I'm set. However, if I need a lower TIR than the Chinese collet gives me for some particular job, I can buy that one specific collet in "superprecision" grade.

stephen thomas said:

So, what is the result or are you still waiting for parts?

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I have all the components I need, but now just have to find the time to make the measurements.

You could'a bought a (US made) Maritool ER16 straight shank for less than $60, and the collets you need for $17 ea. (and true inch ones at that). You would't have had to check them because they would be far more accurate than your ability to measure. Just sayin'....

opscimc said:

It's very easy for people who aren't interested in any given topic, including this one -- don't open the thread.

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Most people aren't interested in seeing a mini-van that has smashed into the back of a parked semi, but they slow down and look, just the same.


Rex