Out smarted by hydraulic fittings.

CNCBurnout · Jan 18, 2018

I'm trying to replace all the soft lines on a hydraulic fixture with hard lines but I'm not sure if I ordered the right fittings or maybe I'm to dense to see what I'm doing wrong. From the hydraulic component I have a male JIC 37 degree fitting that i want to go into a 1/4" hard line. Both fittings are from Vektek. The ferrule (sleeve) is 30-5000-44 and the nut is 30-4000-44. I flared a test piece of tubing and when I slip on the sleeve and nut I don't have enough thread to start the hard line onto the hydraulic components fitting. Shouldn't the sleeve fit thru the nut?

I'm going going off of memory of AN fittings that I use to use for my wanna be fast race car but what I have here doesn't seem close to being right.

Other dumb questions
Should I double flare it? Can you double flare a 37 degree? Is the sleeve even necessary?

Thanks for reading!

adama · Jan 18, 2018

Ferruels crimp down and grip the tube, no flare needed, no offense, but i think you should leave this to some one that knows what there doing. Hydrulics can cause a lot of injury if not connected properly by some one that knows what there doing and based on your picture, you clearly don't.

CNCBurnout · Jan 18, 2018

Thanks for the reply adama. Tomorrow I'll get some help from maintenance since they deal with a lot more hydraulics then I do. I'm just a programmer but i'm starting to deal with a lot more hydraulic fixture designs. But by the sounds of your reply I should only need to use the nut after flaring the tube?

Limy Sami · Jan 18, 2018

Please re read Adama's reply .........try it slowly and think about what he wrote.

CNCBurnout · Jan 18, 2018

LOL maybe it is a good time for me to just go home for the day and stop embarrassing myself. I've done enough damage for one day

atomarc · Jan 18, 2018

That tube nut needs a flare..it does NOT crimp down at all? Your flare job is bogus, it takes a tool specifically for flaring hydraulic tube that rolls the flare. When done properly that tube nut will snuggle up to the base of the flare and the fitting will mate properly.

RIDGID Model 377 Precision Non-Ratcheting Pipe Flaring Tool for 37deg SAE Flares-41162 - The Home Depot

Stuart

adama · Jan 18, 2018

Look hydraulic fittings come in more flavours than ice cream, you need to read the data sheet for the exact ones your using, and look at the exact nuts your using, with the exact ferules, lots of fittings come in lots of flavours too, more than a few are a compression fitting to a flare end and can be 3-4 piece assemblies. The correct combinations and sizing of flares and parts make or break it when you apply pressure.

Just because its called a flare fitting does not mean the pipe going onto it is flared, nuts i know but thats how it is.

With hydrulics and a fuck up you have a nasty mess to clean up at the least, worse, your talking loss of limbs, don't fuck with it, learn it and realise and fully comprehend the combination of bits your using.

Anthony · Jan 18, 2018

To ferrule or not to ferrule, that is the question. I have to agree with the others and say what you have there in the 1st pic is a
no-go...

A pic of the fitting you are connecting to would help figure out what you need.

extropic · Jan 18, 2018

You're using mismatched fittings. the Vectec ferrule is a compression type connection (not a flared type) and won't mate with the male JIC, as you've already discovered. You need flared tube sleeves and nuts to mate with the 37º male fittings you described.

You need the proper tubing, fittings and flaring tool. Seek out some local assistance/training.

ewlsey · Jan 18, 2018

Vektek are good guys. Call them up and tell them what you want to do. They should be able to get you the right recipe.

atomarc · Jan 18, 2018

Those aren't ferrules, they're tube nuts. The only way a 37 degree JIC flare fitting goes together is with a nut, tube nut and a hydraulic line properly flared for 37 degrees. The flare pictured in the original post is not proper, resulting in a fitting that..well, doesn't fit!

Stuart

ewlsey · Jan 18, 2018

I believe the ferrule is a Yor Lock or similar. It has nothing do with a flare. We've got two fitting systems trying to go together.

atomarc · Jan 18, 2018

I may have misidentified some of the components as well as blowing some smoke. Just for some visual clarification here are two illustrations that lay out just two of many different connections available pretty clearly.

I'll guess that 'adama' was referring to 'style A' while I was ranting about the flared style.

Stuart

adama · Jan 19, 2018

ewlsey said:
I believe the ferrule is a Yor Lock or similar. It has nothing do with a flare. We've got two fitting systems trying to go together.

Yay some one else gets it. Foret your training, forget your profession, look at those pretty pictures, ask your self, does the grey ferrule in the second pic look like the ferrule you have on your tube.

I saw the results before of trying to describe hydraulic fittings by style, its akin to describing ice cream by colour alone, does not work, hydraulic fitting components only work correctly as a correctly designed system, don't take unsafe short cuts, dont make assumptions, follow the OEM fittings instructions and they work well, but you have to use the right combinations of part numbers in the correct orientations and last by no means least, make sure the nut and tube collar if needed is on the tube before you flare - bend it, because its so easily forgotten if your as stupid as me!

MattiJ · Jan 19, 2018

And here is exemplar of ferrule mounted fitting for 1/4" tube (not pipe!) with 37-degree AN flare at the other end:
edit: And I was outsmarted by swagelok catalogue as my link was to half-correct fitting :nutter:

No need for flaring tool but prepare for shocker price!

mmarquette · Jan 19, 2018

Get the Parker industrial tube fittings book . All the styles, assembly instructions, tubing, fittings,engineering info you could need.

steve-l · Jan 19, 2018

JIC 37* flare fittings require a tube nut, mating sleeve and a double flare. These flares require a very expensive flaring tool. I do this all the time and have two flaring tools. One I bought used for $250 and my newest is a hand hydraulic one that cost a little over $500 with all the male and female dies. If you do not do this a lot, I suggest you make up the tubes yourself, but bring them to a hydraulic shop that has these special tools. Here's the thing though, JIC (AN) fittings are not so popular any more. They have been replaced with other styles like MS, especially in the aircraft industry. The marine industry still uses JIC though, so the problem is that not all hydraulic shops have these tools anymore. That's primarily why I now have my own. I can recommend an excellent tool if you need, just let me know.

dsergison · Jan 19, 2018

atomarc said:
I may have misidentified some of the components as well as blowing some smoke. Just for some visual clarification here are two illustrations that lay out just two of many different connections available pretty clearly.

I'll guess that 'adama' was referring to 'style A' while I was ranting about the flared style.

Stuart

View attachment 218216 View attachment 218217

you installed the A style ferrule backwards and then you tried to flare the tube but A style does not get flared. you are confusing what you have with the second system.

Hobby Shop · Jan 19, 2018

steve-l said:
JIC 37* flare fittings require a tube nut, mating sleeve and a double flare. These flares require a very expensive flaring tool. I do this all the time and have two flaring tools. One I bought used for $250 and my newest is a hand hydraulic one that cost a little over $500 with all the male and female dies. If you do not do this a lot, I suggest you make up the tubes yourself, but bring them to a hydraulic shop that has these special tools. Here's the thing though, JIC (AN) fittings are not so popular any more. They have been replaced with other styles like MS, especially in the aircraft industry. The marine industry still uses JIC though, so the problem is that not all hydraulic shops have these tools anymore. That's primarily why I now have my own. I can recommend an excellent tool if you need, just let me know.

Jic 37* is still common over here in agriculture and heavy equipment. I’ve made a lot of hydraulic lines and I’ve never put a double flare on ANY JIC 37* fitting. To the OP, get a better flare tool, it makes all the difference. The Ridgid flare tool is about $120 and works great.

The Parker fittings are made in China so I started using Discount Hydraulic online for all my fittings. They’re about 1/2 the price of Parker and they always have what I need in stock.

CNCBurnout · Jan 19, 2018

atomarc said:
I may have misidentified some of the components as well as blowing some smoke. Just for some visual clarification here are two illustrations that lay out just two of many different connections available pretty clearly.

I'll guess that 'adama' was referring to 'style A' while I was ranting about the flared style.

Stuart

View attachment 218216 View attachment 218217

Stuart what I wanted and expected is in your second pic the flared style. I just made a mistake in ordering the Nut and ferrule for a flare less tube. I got of the phone with Vektek this morning and they don't offer a nut and tube sleeve for 37 flared tubes, maybe part of the reason why I ordered the incorrect fittings. I found some good docs from Parker and will be ordering the fittings through them.
http://www.parker.com/Literature/Tube Fittings Division/Assembly_Installation.pdf
Page 20 of that doc says that

Flaring
Several flaring methods, ranging from simple hand flaring to
hydraulic/electric power flaring, are available. Various tools for
flaring are shown on pages R27 through R34. Power flaring
is quicker and produces more accurate and consistent flares
compared to hand flaring. Therefore, it is a preferred method of
flaring. Hand flaring should be limited to places where power
flaring tools are not readily available. The Parflange machines
shown on page R23 also flare tube with an orbital flaring process
and provide the best flare for stainless steel tube.

I don't have a power flaring tool available to me but I have this tool from Mcmaster McMaster-Carr 27555A21
I would think it would be adequate for the job no? The practice flare was just that a practice flare. I did't deburr the tube after the cut and maybe that's why it looks so ugly it has given you a personal vendetta?

Out smarted by hydraulic fittings.

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