How much do you pay for your gases? How much are the big guys really paying...

So, how much are you guys paying for your Acetylene, Argon, CO2, nitrogen, oxygen etc?

It's very very doubtful that anyone here can get this sort of pricing, but it certainly helps to have a realistic idea of what gases really cost to produce by looking at the prices that volume users are actually paying.

Here's what a tech school paid under purchase order P0008024 per cylinder to Holston Gases of Cookeville, Tennessee under contract pricing in December 2012: I only listed gases of interest to most here, but if you read the attached file, you can see details like quantity of cylinders.
Acetylene 120 cu.ft $29
Argon 228 cu.ft $28
CO2 50 lbs $10
Helium: 220 cu.ft $42
Nitrogen 255.cu.ft $10
Oxygen 250 cu.ft $8

Information above is from public domain documents and obtained legally.

The killer in the UK is cylinder rental especially if you don't use much gas ,I have seen a few companies selling rent free bottles and I would be interested if anyone does this.

Sable, don't know were your located, but elmdale welding do a 10 year deal (saber gas). Its about akin to 2 years of boc rental for that size up front, then just refill costs for the next 10 years. I have a half sized arogon tank, IMHO its a pretty sweat deal and best of all they will deliver the bottle for just £10+ pick up the old for free. Unlike BOC who rip you for £15 even if you take it to one of there main locations and that location is opposite filling yard!!! hence why a half size is not a costly thing compared to full size and my back really appreciates it!

The actual refills are a couple of quid more than BOC, but then with out handeling charges, its also a clear saveing!

Supposedly BOC are to start doing something similar, but truth be told, they have screwed me for a number of years so i will never deal with BOC again.

No idea what we pay for the gas, but it was just a small amount compared to the tank rentals.

Took 6 years to use up an oxygen and an acetylene tank... We said screw it, turned them in and bought the
biggest bottle they will sell, about 10 months worth of rental fees on the big tanks.

Still have the big bottles on the welders, but again I have no idea what we pay for the gas, haven't filled
a tank in over a year, maybe 2. But the rental fees... they keep coming.

IIRC, I am paying roughly four times that for argon: about $50 for a 125cf cylinder exchange. That's from memory, so may be whacked.

a 120cfm of Argon for me here $75.30cad before taxes. rental is around $10/month.
Other places were charging more for less...

How about liquid oxegen prices compared to bottle gas. I suppose a lot will boil off if not used much so it would only make sense for really big shops. I see some fast food places are running big dewars outside, I assume for co2.
Can you get a co2 or argon mix for mig welding or will it only be one gas at a time as temps rise and different boiling points are reached.
Bill D.

Bill D said:

How about liquid oxegen prices compared to bottle gas.

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Are you running a refinery or a hospital?

$40 per 160 liters which expands to 5,000 cu.ft vs $5.50 per 250 cu.ft in gas bottles is what Airgas South was charging Florida International University until November 2013 , as a package deal with buying a whole bunch of other gases.

Pretty sure the setup needed to safely turn to gas is very expensive. I've no idea what high volume private businesses pay and I'm pretty sure vendors are not going to tell you. If you're serious, start by requesting awarded contracts from public entities in your area. You're not going to get that kind of pricing unless you use as much quantity as they do, but having a good idea on what rock bottom prices are actually possible is a good idea before you start negotiating.

Bill D said:

Can you get a co2 or argon mix for mig welding or will it only be one gas at a time as temps rise and different boiling points are reached.
Bill D.

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Separate tanks, gas mixer on site. You can't afford the equipment if you're not running a huge factory to justify it.

I'm a home shop guy, and I would be killed by rental costs. I've got acetylene, oxygen, and 75/25 argon/co2. I don't use much, but when I need it, I need it. I've probably refilled my oxy/acetylene 5 times in 25 years. It's easy to purchase tanks here and a much better deal than renting. They aren't refilled, they're exchanged. So, if you are careful, you can avoid the cost of hydro testing....

A 60 cubic foot cylinder was $113.75 in 1/2012, with a cost of $17.21 for the fill of 75/25 argon/co2. Up to about $22 recently.

Geographic location has a lot to do with this.
You could probably buy gas as cheap as that tech school does, in Tennesee- and then pay common carrier truck freight charges from Tennessee to your shop, and end up paying MORE than you do at your local welding supply.

The fact is, welding consumption of all of the gases you listed is a teeny tiny percentage of the market. Particularly for things like Oxygen, welding uses are so low as to barely register. Most commercial gases are used for manufacturing- plastics, chemicals, and then also in food storage. Many of the plants that make these gases are located right next to natural gas wells, in places like Louisiana. And the plastics and chemical factories are right next door, connected by pipelines.

Frankly, they just dont care that much about 3% of their market. The needs, and prices, of welding shops, are such a tiny part of their profits that it simply isnt worth them worrying about it.

Acetylene, in particular, is almost all from ONE plant, in Kentucky, a plant that was built in 1941. It had a serious industrial accident a couple of years ago, and is still running below normal capacity. The entire US market for Acetylene is so small that it isnt worth it for any major chemical company to build a new, state of the art plant. The money just aint there.
So, the farther you live from Kentucky, the more you pay for acetylene, no matter how big a customer you are- you still gotta pay freight, and while the gas isnt heavy, the containers are.
Plant Explosion May Affect Supply of Acetylene

Many big gas companies simply cant be bothered with selling to welding supply companies at all- its just too much hassle for the return.

So, no, its not some conspiracy to rip you off- its just a tiny market, and a very expensive process.
A plant to extract Helium from natural gas costs tens of millions of dollars, and the resulting helium can cost, at retail, 2 or 3 times what we are used to paying for the naturally occuring stuff that the US government was storing underground. There is a finite amount in the Federal Helium Reserve, and when its gone, we are going to be paying lots more for it. Currently, there are only a couple of new Helium sources coming online- plants in Algeria and Quatar. If you think its expensive to get it now, from Oklahoma, where Exxon makes a bunch of helium, wait til the Hugoton field is dry, and all our helium is being shipped from Quatar and Algeria...

Argon extraction, similarly, is expensive, and the demand is way too small to justify investment in hundred million dollar facilities. Total worldwide Argon production is something like 700,000 tons a year- a tiny amount, when spread over all its applications.

When you need expensive, rare gases, that have no mass market, and are a hassle to extract, package, and transport, you pay for it.

Was told Monday when picking up a 100cu ft bottle of acetylene at the local auto parts/welding supply that acetylene is going up to $39/ 100cu ft next month. Not like it makes any difference. You gotta have it.

Ries said:

Geographic location has a lot to do with this.

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Yep, which is why I said do the legwork and probe local public records so you have a good idea of what it really costs in your area.

[Acetylene, in particular, is almost all from ONE plant, in Kentucky, a plant that was built in 1941.

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So, looking at recent contract pricing gives you a good idea of what gases really cost.

A plant to extract Helium from natural gas costs tens of millions of dollars, and the resulting helium can cost, at retail, 2 or 3 times what we are used to paying for the naturally occuring stuff that the US government was storing underground. There is a finite amount in the Federal Helium Reserve, and when its gone, we are going to be paying lots more for it.

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Everyone's quick to point out increasing costs to rationalize price raises, but when commodity prices come down on wholesale, you ever notice that the price falls slower than it rises?

Argon extraction, similarly, is expensive, and the demand is way too small to justify investment in hundred million dollar facilities. Total worldwide Argon production is something like 700,000 tons a year- a tiny amount, when spread over all its applications.

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True and that's when its helpful to know how significant the raw material cost is to the product. Cost of copper for example has a huge impact on wires. Cost of mercury on fluorescent lamps? Not even worth a mention when its $88 per 1,000 grams and each bulb only needs about 0.004g

When you need expensive, rare gases, that have no mass market, and are a hassle to extract, package, and transport, you pay for it.

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Argon is produced whenever liquid air is distilled to get nitrogen and oxygen. So public documents will tell you about the local market cost. When big guys are getting Argon locally for $20 per 330cu.ft and you're paying $20 on your 40 cu.ft tank, well you can deduce that local material cost is no greater than $2.42. Suppose local wholesale prices double and the retail prices go up to $35. When they get to charge $35 on 4.84 cost, that $15 price tag increase for $2.42 increase in their cost is quite sweet to the retailer.

"Argon is produced whenever liquid air is distilled to get nitrogen and oxygen."

What is "liquid air?"

"Yep, which is why I said do the legwork and probe local public records so you have a good idea of what it really costs in your area."

What public records?

MetalWOT said:

Argon is produced whenever liquid air is distilled to get nitrogen and oxygen. So public documents will tell you about the local market cost. When big guys are getting Argon locally for $20 per 330cu.ft and you're paying $20 on your 40 cu.ft tank, well you can deduce that local material cost is no greater than $2.42. Suppose local wholesale prices double and the retail prices go up to $35. When they get to charge $35 on 4.84 cost, that $15 price tag increase for $2.42 increase in their cost is quite sweet to the retailer.

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Not true.
There are only three producers of argon for welding in the USA, Praxair, Air Liquide, and Air Products and Chemicals.
And even among those three, only a portion of their oxygen facilities are set up to make argon. In many, the argon is simply not extracted, as it costs too much versus the profit to be made from selling it.
These are really big, expensive facilities, and there are not very many of them. I dont think there is a single one in the Pacific Northwest. My guess is the closest Argon plant is somewhere in california.
read this- its a bit outdated, but it tells you a lot about how the big industrial customers- steel mills, plastic factories, chemical plants- dictate prices and availability of welding gases.
Where Has All The Argon Gone? | Welding & Gases Today

Also- just because, say, Microsoft has a deal with Bonneville to buy power for their giant server farms in eastern washington at 2.5 cents per kilowatt hour, it doesnt mean that I can get that price- I pay a dime or so, plus taxes.
Doing the legwork, and finding out what long term fixed price wholesale customers buy tells me absolutely NOTHING about what my retail price is going to be for one tank of argon.
Nor should it.
Buying in bulk, guaranteeing purchases for years, always yields lower prices.
I will never get those prices, and its meaningless to somehow think you are being screwed because you pay more per pound for aluminum than Boeing does.

How old are you, anyway?

Sea Farmer said:

"Argon is produced whenever liquid air is distilled to get nitrogen and oxygen."

What is "liquid air?"

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Liquid air is the first or main stage in atmospheric gas production. Air is literally compressed and chilled multiple times till it liquefies. The different gases are then distilled off.

The laser at one of my customers has a 2000 litre dewer of liquid nitrogen out front. Gets used fast enough to keep it chilled enough that none ever boils off. (the beam path runs a nitrogen purge + cutting stainless, the nozzels have anything up to a 3.5mm hole which flows a lot of gas at the 10-20 bar operating pressure range! There old laser also use to have a liquid oxygen dewer too, but smaller. Due to the dramatically reduced O2 use though it frequently had to vent to drop pressure. These days, a pair of multi cylinder pallets is a lot cheaper for the oxygen. A 12 bottle 200+ bar pallet lasts about a fornight and there's no venting loss.

Pressure swing nitrogen production from onsite compressed air was looked at but although potentially cheaper in the long long term, due to a shortage + the cost of upgradeing the sites electrical supply to run the extra compressor needs it did not happen. Shame as the waste 02 scrubbed could have potentially been then further refined and used for the sites o2 needs.

One of the previous places i use to work had a fully plumbed inert + flammables gas distrubution to over 15+ welding bays. Welding mix was litrally mixed from liquid argon and liquid CO2 dewers on site. The demand was also enough for a 2000+ liter liquid oxygen tank for cutting + multiple banked acetylene cylinders (had a cut off connected to the fire alarm). A fully plumbed building sure makes for efficient use of operators time + reduces a lot of manual handling type H&S risks. Equally its also nice in a emergency to have zero compressed gas cylinders in the actual building. Its very expensive to set-up though!

IMHO and experience going to liquid gas supplies only makes sense when demand dictates those kinda qty's. It is not all that much cheaper in a medium size place and is massively over expensive for small users!

MetalWOT said:

Are you running a refinery or a hospital?

$40 per 160 liters which expands to 5,000 cu.ft vs $5.50 per 250 cu.ft in gas bottles is what Airgas South was charging Florida International University until November 2013 , as a package deal with buying a whole bunch of other gases.

Pretty sure the setup needed to safely turn to gas is very expensive. I've no idea what high volume private businesses pay and I'm pretty sure vendors are not going to tell you. If you're serious, start by requesting awarded contracts from public entities in your area. You're not going to get that kind of pricing unless you use as much quantity as they do, but having a good idea on what rock bottom prices are actually possible is a good idea before you start negotiating.

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Both of you are dooing a whole lot of assuming here.

Local scrappers say "if your not running liquid, your not making money" so it's not just "refinery's and hospitals"

"Pretty sure the setup needed to safely turn to gas is very expensive." it's part of the bottle, there is a tap
marked "gas", or "vapor"....as well as one marked "liquid".

Put some real, hard numbers out there.

The normal sized liquid ox dewar is equiv to X number of 250 cf bottle (IIRC 24 I was told)
You have (1) month in which to use the qty, before it gasses off.

I paid 65.00 for a 280 cu ft bottle of Argon last month here ---

digger doug said:

"Pretty sure the setup needed to safely turn to gas is very expensive." it's part of the bottle, there is a tap
marked "gas", or "vapor"....as well as one marked "liquid".

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I don't know if some anecdotal tale is a good example. Was his statement based on his sourcing ability? If you look at high volume users, like manufacturing plants or hospitals, you'll see an evaporator system to heat liquid gases to evaporate. Your vapor withdrawal from the tank is limited to natural evaporation rate and if you're not staying ahead of this rate, you're losing it through off-gassing. So after the evaporator, if you want a CO2/Argon blend, you'd of course need a gas blending equipment that blends them to specifications.

I'm not going to bother getting hard numbers, but I think its a fairly reasonable assumption to say such setup is capital cost intensive.