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12-11-2010, 02:35 PM #21
Rest of the ways look pretty fair. You can even clearly see the cross hatch scraping on the bottom of the dovetails in the body. No Disrespect to anyone opinions so far But I have to believe that even on a Chinese mill drill with the Gib's snugged up That one could machine this to better fit then as it stands. the fellow who rebuilt this shaper seemed to have success.
Metal Shaper Column 46
12-11-2010, 03:23 PM #22
"one could machine this to better fit then as it stands"
So you are saying that it has a lot of wear in the way, as well as this galling? I am imagining a machine set up for production with the ram set at a give stroke length and run that way for a few years on end. This would make an hourglass wear shape in the ram on that side, as the galling took out much of the way surface, causing it to wear faster. If that is the case, part the rest of this one out and buy another shaper.
It sounds like the previous owner just backed the gibs off to where it would run. Seeing as how the bottom of the slide is not very worn, it sounds to me like the gib was run loose. Think about it, the gib pushes the ram down, as well as narrowing the dovetail. If the gib was loose, the bottom is nearly unworn. Now, that running probably further damaged other areas of the gib, so that may be your greatest concern, not the damage to the ram. If it's a straight gib (and it should be), get a piece of durabar and make another one, or just buy another Atlas shaper with worn out table slides and scavenge the ram and gib.
If it just looks bad, but doesn't have a lot of slop with the ram run up to where this area is just barely in the column, it's just going to look bad, but will not materially affect the performance of the machine, other than to accelerate wear in that area, due to reduced surface. Hone down the high spots, then blue up a surface plate and print this side of the ram. Hone and blue the gib, as well. If neither shows a major amount of sag, put it back together and let it ride. If either shows severe lack of contact, replace.
No matter what you do, as I mentioned before, remember this is a $500 shaper. It's has no great historical significance, it is not at all rare or unusual, so you can undoubtedly part it out for more than you can buy another one for. You can also probably buy another undamaged ram and gib for less than the cost of machining this, or replacement cost of the machine. If you want to fix it, buy some used parts and make it nice. If you want to make some money and have a better machine, part this one out and buy another.
Now, if like the AMMCO owner, you want to make the proverbial silk purse out of a sow's ear, it can be done. You will have an awful lot of work involved and the machine will never be worth more, monetarily, than is is in the present condition, but you'll feel better. Noting wrong with that, either.... but I think I'd just go look for a 12" Hendey which was built with that kind of care in the first place. You can probably buy one for less than you'll get parting out this shaper.
If you have experience in machine tool alignment and rebuilding, you will have the same results as the AMMCO project, if not... well....
12-12-2010, 02:11 AM #23
12-12-2010, 02:48 AM #24
No master of words here, but yes we do have them in the USA.
Usally they are over a fireplace.
12-12-2010, 06:21 AM #25
That's were we have them, just making sure the terminology was the same, bumper or fender, bonnet or hood, boot or trunk ! You can't be too careful. Regards Tyrone.
12-12-2010, 06:29 AM #26
Take out the ram, wash the areas with a strong solvent several times. Then once more.
Mix up some 5 min epoxy, fill in, not taking any particular trouble to stay flush, just be sure you fill it all the way.
let it set completely.
Use a "burr file" to knock the epoxy down level with the 'good surface".
Re-assemble and use it. Chips won't get in and make it worse, and you have only 30 min or so in the repair.
If you use that stuff called oil, there won't be any problem with it "melting" or whatever.
12-12-2010, 07:02 AM #27
Another way of repairing this is by bolting on a piece of spring steel on one side and pull it tight on the other side with some permanent pulling device
Then machine down the gib
I have seen that as a guide on radial arm drilling machines
And I did use it once to fix the galling on the long lower way on a Deckel FP3L
If it holds with the speed on a shaper I don`t know
peter from Holland
12-12-2010, 08:26 AM #28
JST, so how do you propose that the ram got in this condition to begin with? Is epoxy going to be harder and more resistant to damage than cast iron... I don't think so, either. That's why packing putty in the gouges is only going to create more problems. Not if, but when a paper thin section of the epoxy peels and gets caught in the ways, it's going to close up the clearance, shove the oil out of the way and proceed to bind/tear/gall/smear/melt the rest of that thin sheet of expoxy (he said it is no more than .020 deep, not much thickness to work with).
Again, would you reccomend somebody with a galled lathe spindle just fill the divots with epoxy and put it back together? Why not? it's the same principle. This is a moving bearing surface with fairly high surface speed when in operation.
12-12-2010, 10:14 AM #29
12-12-2010, 10:43 AM #30
My point, exactly. The epoxy will be totally intolerant of dry running (startup). Oil is eventually going to seep through the cast iron and under the epoxy, causing it to turn loose and flake at the edges. On the table slide, OK, but not on the ram bearing surface.
12-12-2010, 10:57 AM #31
Probably lack of wipers, or running loose so that a piece or two of something else got in there. the gouges don't look "general" enough for a real lack of oil problem.
With a biggish open slot waiting to catch another piece, it's only a matter of time until that happens, and the gouges are opened up yet further by whatever crap got in.
You are just over-thinking the whole business.... and that right after suggesting the machine was cheap and should be fixed cheap....
The epoxy fills up the holes, and prevents crap from getting in again. any that lands on it gets wiped off. I have done this on several items.... they are all still working fine.
And please note that the real bearing surface is the remaining iron. If you were suggesting that epoxy isn't a good bearing surface, I'd agree like a shot. But here there is iron all around it.... and the gib will be replaced. The epoxy is a FILLER...... to occupy space that chips would find if they could get in it.
Maybe you need to lighten up a bit, or lay off the caffeine....... you are going way overboard on this. And as you said... it's a cheap $500 shaper......
12-12-2010, 11:16 AM #32
JB Weld does not belong in machine tool ways. Machine it out and use a proper
polymer way material, OK. Otherwise use as is. Keep it clean, fit some felt
wipers if need be.
12-12-2010, 11:17 AM #33
"I have done this on several items.... they are all still working fine."
On what? I seriously doubt you have epoxied any shaper ram ways.
Unless the epoxy is left below the way surface by several thousandths (which the gouges already are), it is going to be serving as a bearing surface, and will be a bearing surface as soon as the ram way wears down to that point. If it is beneath the surface by several thousandths, it can catch chips, same as running loose. A hot chip will stick in the epoxy. A chip caught in the epoxy is going to become a shaper tool working inside the ram ways. So there is not really any gain in putting epoxy on this versus just slicking it down with a stone and letting it run.
I'm not going to lighten up on this, it's a really bad idea to put epoxy in a bearing, be it linear or rotating. I usually have great respect for your opinions and agree, but not on this one.
12-12-2010, 05:30 PM #34
Well, we will just disagree on this one........
BTW, "JB weld" is an abomination...... it isn't that good an epoxy, and the fillers are dubious.
I have used clear epoxy purely as a filler material, to keep crap out of gouges that were too big to machine out. I don't particularly bother with small scores..... so 'feather edges" are no big issue.
As for wear, I am going to hope that the wear will not be very rapid on the CI shaper ways....... so long as that funny "oil" stuff is used. if and when the CI wears down seriously into the epoxy, the epoxy will wear away without causing as much trouble as CI wear particles..... The epoxy is not a lapping compound, CI particles are.
But, neither of us is the person concerned. he has to weigh the merits and choose his repair.
I noted that he asked for the "proper" way..... That is going to vary, but normally would involve machining down and re-scraping, etc. if the gib won't be unduly thickened by that, it is obviously the "best" way, as it preserves 100% CI bearing.
12-12-2010, 05:44 PM #35
Either fill or not...
I had mentioned epoxy and grinder dust, I should have stated fine iron particles but I assumed folks did not think I was stating to use the abrasive stuff.
THe abrasive stuff would indeed creat a huge problem and would not provide any support.
The iron that is near the back end of the grinder is very fine, finer if from a mill file or other cutter.
The point was to use a fine powdered iron in the epoxy so it would then be the bearer of any force.
I have filled holes in tables and other things this way and they look and work fine, but never have needed to do so on a way.
But given the look of the surface of the ram it does not really need any filler or scraping as it seems to have enough area to properly support the ram.
The filling of the gouges and the truing of the surfaces would make it look better and for a non-production machine it may be fine if properly done.
The surfaces would need to be carefully stoned to be true, and if the epoxy was not perfectly mixed and surfaces propery prepared the epoxy would most likely fail over time.
So I would think the best approach would be to clean everything up and reassemble.
Adjust the gibs as required then mount a dial indicator to the ram and check for any loose spots, I would think that there is an abundant amount of support along the ram to properly support the ways for a non-production machine as is.
12-12-2010, 06:17 PM #36
Clean up any rough spots, put it back together and make some chips. If whatever marked it up is out of there you'll never wear the rest of it out. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff.
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12-13-2010, 03:23 AM #37
I with the stone it off, adjust the gibs and keep it well oiled crowd. I have as Atlas with similar scoring, 16 years later it’s still going strong. May not look the greatest, but it sure reminds you to make sure its oiled and on the plus side It holds a lot more oil.
Of course, if the ram looks like that what does the rocker arm and shoe look like?
12-13-2010, 05:12 AM #38
Howdo you separate the iron particles from the abrasive dust?
12-13-2010, 05:36 AM #39
With a magnet, of course....
Only kidding, but you know this might be reason to save the swarf from the power hacksaw.
12-13-2010, 10:59 AM #40