old Allis forklift won't start?

A week and a half ago, I brought home an early 70's Allis FPB 20-24 1 ton capacity forklift. The lift is powered by a gas (Waukesha F 133 4 cyl). Anyway; when I picked up the forklift from the seller, it started right up. It also fired right up when I unloaded it, after the 300 mi trip home.
The forklift has sat for a little over a week, with no charger on the battery. Today; I tried to start it, in order to change the oil/filter. The old Allis would not start! I put a 200 amp jump box on it, and the lift still won't start. Even after a quick charge for 30 min @ 40 amps. The carb is getting fuel (electric fuel pump is working), the ignition solenoid is working. I am sure the forklift is in neutral (checked a few times). I am not seeing the crank pulley rotating with the ignition engaged? It sounds and seems like the starter motor isn't kicking in, when the key is turned on. I am thinking either the batt is going bad, or the starter motor crapped out? I even took a rubber mallet and gave the starter a few wacks, but still not start. I am going to put the battery on a trickle charger over night, and go from there. Will probably start with a new battery, then go on to the starter motor. Any idea how big you can go with CCA rating (cold cranking amps) on these little 4 cyl forklifts? Also; on a shuttle shift clutch, you don't have to have the clutch pedal engaged, on start up - do you? I am sure as long as the lift is in neutral, it should start? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Billy,

Lots of things I'm not clear on in your post! A 400CCA battery would be pretty standard and more than adequate for your machine. Are you saying when you turn the key to START nothing happens? If you a multimeter or a 12 volt circuit tester (lighted probe) your first task would be to make sure the appropriate terminal on the starter solenoid is seeing power when the key is turned to START. There is probably a neutral starter safety switch in the circuit so the rig has to be in neutral to complete the circuit to pull the solenoid in.

The first thing to do is make sure the battery is known to be good or known to be properly charged...with clean terminals.

If you could clarify..there is a difference between 'won't start' and 'won't turn over' when the key is turned to START. Verify the state of the battery then verify that the solenoid is getting 12 volts when the key is turned to START. If all this is a GO then your starter is defunct. This wouldn't be the most probable scenario as it started before and now it won't...think bad BATT or bad solenoid!

Stuart

Everything Stuart says is correct. Especially, you have not given us anything substantive to go on. What happens when you turn the key? (some possibilities: NOTHING, no sound no motion, click or thunk sound but no crank (engine does not rotate) click or think and engine cranks (turns over) but does not start.)

As to neutral switches, etc: If you do what you did before when the engine started, you should be OK in that regard. If the battery is charged (try it in another vehicle or machine) and you do get a clunk or something when you try to crank the engine, and hold the key in START for a few seconds, do any wires, etc get hot? This would indicate that something is shorted electrically somewhere or something is jammed or stuck, causing the starter to be unable to spin the engine, even though it is trying to do so.

Why not call the seller to see if he ever had this problem? What can it hurt?

Good luck,

Steve

btw, I just reread your post. What is an ignition solenoid? Do you mean the start solenoid (or start relay)? Can you reach the engine cooling fan? if so, give it a tug (with everything OFF and battery cable disconnected) and see if the engine will turn. If so, and if the battery is good but the engine still won't crank, try jumping the starter directly with a booster cable, eliminating the start relay, etc. Watch out for sparks and keep hands away from stuff that could turn and hurt you and make SURE the machine is in neutral and the hand brake is working and set HARD (I know, I'm a nervous nelly, but I gotta say it). If the engine cranks when you do this your problem is in the starter switching system. If the starter does not turn but is pulling heavy current (big spark when you connect to battery, cables get warm) you have a starter problem or the engine is stuck. If nothing happens when you connect directly to the starter (no crank, no sparking, etc) you have an open in the starter. Badly worn starter brushes will sometimes fail intermittently to contact the armature, resulting in no joy. If the engine is stuck, remove the spark plugs and see if it will crank. Sometimes a leaky head gasket will allow a cylinder to fill with water after a while, resulting in hydraulic lock. (Hope this is not the case.)

s

Depending on the design of the starter drive they will sometimes jam into the ring gear and then the engine will not rotate. Pull sparkplugs and turn engine over using the fan on the odd chance you lost a head gasket and filled a cylinder with water. Normaly the term "crank" refers to the engine rotateing ,not a non start issue. More info please.

Chase your battery wires. Make sure they are clean and have good connections on the battery poles, the ground lug and the starter lug. If this has a Ford type solenoid, mounted remotely with a secondary wire going to the starter, check to make sure the battery cables are clean and tight, but also check that the signal wire from the switch hasn't fallen off or broken or corroded. You can jump from the battery wire to the signal terminal and see if the starter turns. If so, you need a switch. If not, keep going.

If jumping the signal doesn't turn the starter, jump directly from the battery cable on one side of the solenoid to the other to bypass the solenoid. If it turns, the solenoid (and beware of mucho flying sparks when you do this, as it is very high amperage) is bad. Replace it. If it still doesn't turn, pull the starter and have it tested and rebuilt. Probably fried brushes. If you have a good rebuilder, they can tell you which battery pole is not making good contact by which brush is burnt up.

If it is a GM or Chrysler type starter with the solenoid on top of the starter in a little can, you can make the same checks, but you won't have the secondary cable. May be hard to reach stuffed down in a forklift, too. Might be easier to just pull it and have it checked out.

One last thing... I have a Step Van that I bought with a "bad" starter solenoid. Guys before had been moving the doghouse and jumping the solenoid with a screwdriver for five years. I decided to fix it. Got to chasing wires and found a clutch safety switch. Pushed the clutch to the floor and it started right up. Make sure you aren't missing a safety for clutch, neutral, seat, Ebrake, etc... that is preventing the signal from reaching the solenoid.

If the lift won't crank, check for a neutral safety switch. Try turning the ignition key and wiggling the shift lever at the same time - it's possible that any safety switch might have been on the edge of where it needed to be to allow the engine to start. And as was said previously, try stomping on the brake pedal. There might also be an interlock on the parking brake. If all else fails, go to a forklift service shop and pay them $ 5/10 for a copy of the wiring diagram for your lift.

step one.remove battery,take to local garage/parts store and have battery tested.this is the cheapest place to start.
if battery passes,then on to finding someone to test starter.myself,i can test/disassemble/inspect.
so that machine is 1960-1971. its using a delco 10mt starter.about as common as a chevy v8 engine.
ign coil secondary wire off, and in neutral .using a jumper or screwdriver,jump "S" terminal to large terminal with battery cable.
if battery is good and starter is good,it should crank.

From the Out Of Left Field Department:

When you "cleaned up" the forklift, what sort of "why is that there?" stuff was discarded?

Perhaps a folded-up piece of cardboard/sheet metal (that held a switch closed)?

How many times (during the clean-up) did you say to yourself "this shouldn't matter, so I'll just..."?

Did you ask anybody advice on some detail, and they said "No, No, put it back together my way, instead"?

Something else I just thought of... Remember the old VWs? You tried to start and didn't catch. You could turn teh switch to start position all you wanted and it wouldn't engage the starter until you turned the ignition completely off and then went back to start. I have seen a few forklifts built that way, including the 4500lb Allis/Chalmers we had at the museum. If you turned the switch on and kept trying to start it, it's not going to work until you go back to the off position.