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Radial drill with deep scoring in one area of column... wonder how it happened ?

Milacron

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1982 Ikeda 1175, 13" column, 4 foot arm, no 5 MT. Rare in the sense that the head looks nearly pristine, with original paint....everything works beautifully, ways on arm look like new. And the column looks nearly new as well...with the arm lowered all the way. But then raise up the arm on the column.... and a few inches up some multiple scoring lines start to be revealed about 1/2" wide total, and continue all the way until the arm it at the top. In other words the top half of the the column is pristine 360 degrees but the lower half has that fairly deep multiple scoring marks about 1/2" total width. Position of scoring is at 90 degrees (assuming you are on a ladder at front of machine looking down on top of column and the back of machine column is 0 degrees)

I seriously doubt this effects the actual function or accuracy of the drill at all...but still wondering how the hell it happened ? (and if it might still be happening every time I raise it...doesn't seem too) One is tempted to imagine some sort of hydraulic brake in the arm that has gone amuck pushing against the column too much.

But that's not how the rotation is braked...the rotation is braked via hydraulics wedging the column in position....the arm does not ever rotate on the column and is kept in position by a deep keyway at the rear of the column.

All I can figure is maybe previous owners were drilling something long enough that it scraped against the column while they raised the arm up and they didn't notice it was happening. The 90 degree position of the score marks fits perfectly with that theory. Any other ideas ?

As I said, functionally I don't think this matters at all....but just a bummer as when cleaned up this drill could appear as brand spanking new if not for that one issue. (actually it still would appear as new as long as the arm was left in lowest position as the scores are hidden in that position !)
 
If the machine is otherwise pristine, I wonder if here was some debris between the column and arm that wasn't noticed until several cycles of height change occurred ?
Nice unit and probably not functionally challenged by the scoring.
Joe
 
I would suspect a lube problem or lack of. Years ago, mid 60's, when Sperm whale oil was no longer available, way lubes suffered somewhat until the oil companies caught up with the problem. I have seen several big Carlton's with the horizontal rail scored.
JH
 
Interesting. Like you, my first thought was a braking mechanism, or a mis-placed set screw, or something like that, but you've ruled that out.

As for a long work piece scraping -- does the arm rise on the column, or does the column rise out of the base? If the latter, your theory makes sense to me ... but the only radial drills I've had any close contact with worked the first way (i.e., column is fixed to the base, but the arm can move up and down the column).

Not very helpful, I know ... mostly just musing aloud.
 
I've seen it on a few radial drills. When plugging holes, the operator is to lazy to remove the die shoe before grinding the plugs flush. The abrasive from the wheel mixed with the steel plug will ruin a column in no time.
 
As for a long work piece scraping -- does the arm rise on the column, or does the column rise out of the base? If the latter, your theory makes sense to me ... but the only radial drills I've had any close contact with worked the first way (i.e., column is fixed to the base, but the arm can move up and down the column).
Uh boy..should have had more coffee before posting that theory...forgot whatever long piece might be clamped could not possibly effect the column that way as both would be stationary in the horizontal plane...as you say, only the arm rises and lowers, so the arm or something attached to the arm, had to have caused the gouging. I'll get some photos...
 
Interesting, There was another Ikeda, an 1815, that the factory took back due to the column scoring...was due to bad castings...there were other problems with it too...this was back in 1985.
 
Here's some pix. Looks horrible in the second pix but in real life one barely notices it as most of the time the arm casting covers all or most of it.. Our of curiosity, after I took the below photos, I applied some Labmetal to about 6 inches of the scoring, let it dry, sanded....and ran the arm up/down and the Labmetal was still intact. So whatever did the damage is apparently gone now.

In the third photo you can see a blue dot of tape, which is where I estimate via measurements of score positions where whatever did the scoring would have been inside the casting. Which is even weirder as what could possibly be at that position in the arm casting ? Remember, the arm does not rotate on the column....the column rotates In the base.

IMG_1380.JPGIMG_1383.jpgIMG_1392.JPGIMG_1400.jpg

Note in the last photo, the arm is in the position where no scoring at all shows anywhere on the column, looks beautiful....anything you might think is scoring in that photo is just streaks of grease or oil that wipe right off (except I presume it needs the stuff so I leave it be) or simply a reflection in the shiny metal.

Sure would be interesting to remove the arm from the column and see what inside the arm looks like in that area...but oh what a PITA that would be just to satisfy my curiosity.

As to theories, don't know....but it is interesting that I would think that area might exert the most pressure on the column as it is generally inline with the arm projection.
 
thats consistent with the casting flaw theory IMHO. either someone got carried away trimming gates or just a pattern issue...... sometimes castings can get like that. I doubt they turned it from solid.
 
Does not look like scoring. Looks like a casting defect to me. Notice no drag marks in the gouges in pic #2. Those voids were there before it was ground and the grind exposed them. Some even look slightly undercut.......would never happen with scoring. - Just my take.
 
Milacron,
When and if you positively determine the cause of this galling please post your findings, I have two radials that have exactly the same issues although neither are that extreme, one is an eight inch column, 3' arm, Invema that besides the scoring is in immaculate shape, and the other is on a Cinci-Bickford that has a seventeen inch column and 5' arm, I've removed the wipers, scrubbed and cleaned, purged with oil thinking it had just occurred, I've blued the area and nothing more has ever developed, and the blueing remains after a few years of use. The scoring in both cases is about 20 degrees C.C. from being in line with the arm and the axial load. Someday I want to pull the arm off the column and see if it is indeed flaws in the casting that trapped something and initiated the scoring? The Cinci replaced a very tired antique American a couple years ago, it only had a 13" column and 4' arm, everything about that radial was wore out, except the column, there wasn't a score anywhere on it, go figure...
 
Does not look like scoring. Looks like a casting defect to me. Notice no drag marks in the gouges in pic #2. Those voids were there before it was ground and the grind exposed them. Some even look slightly undercut.......would never happen with scoring. - Just my take.

It looks like Galling typically due to lack of lubrication to me, I doubt that Ikeda would release a new machine with a column in that condition.
 
. Position of scoring is at 90 degrees (assuming you are on a ladder at front of machine looking down on top of column and the back of machine column is 0 degrees)
Assuming that 90 degrees is clockwise when viewed from atop, that's generally pointing in the direction of the arm? (Understanding that the column rotates with the arm).

If you stand in front of the machine, with a big canter-levered moment like that, you will have the most pressure on the top left hand side of the column, and the bottom right hand side at the bottom of the arm bore.

Does it even have a wiper to clean the 13" column? I'd figure a felt wiper at best. It's picked up some shit on the bottom where its nearest the dirty work and proceeded to pick up and score.

I seldom go against Tony, but that looks like a classic case of pick up / scoring due to lack of lube, or a pickup, that continues to tumble up cast iron, ripping those gouges. There feathered out on the ends.

Regards Phil.
 
Assuming that 90 degrees is clockwise when viewed from atop, that's generally pointing in the direction of the arm? (Understanding that the column rotates with the arm).

If you stand in front of the machine, with a big canter-levered moment like that, you will have the most pressure on the top left hand side of the column, and the bottom right hand side at the bottom of the arm bore.

Does it even have a wiper to clean the 13" column? I'd figure a felt wiper at best. It's picked up some shit on the bottom where its nearest the dirty work and proceeded to pick up and score.

I seldom go against Tony, but that looks like a classic case of pick up / scoring due to lack of lube, or a pickup, that continues to tumble up cast iron, ripping those gouges. There feathered out on the ends.

Regards Phil.
Did you miss the part in my post about the blue dot ? And actually, in that photo I had the dot in the wrong position...later, more careful measurements would put the dot at about 5 inches up from the wiper ! How the hell could something large enough to score that deep move 5 inches past the wiper without doing any scoring AT ALL, but then 5 inches from the bottom of the casting start scoring like crazy in three or four distinct lines ?? Remember, since the arm does not rotate on the column, there would had to have been more than one piece of score material in there to create the separate lines. It's bizarre..

Think I'll remove the lower wiper and have a look see....perhaps there is a void in the casting in that area or mispositioned keyway that an Ikeda worker tried to hide with the wiper surround !
 
Did you miss the part in my post about the blue dot ? And actually, in that photo I had the dot in the wrong position...later, more careful measurements would put the dot at about 5 inches up from the wiper ! How the hell could something large enough to score that deep move 5 inches past the wiper without doing any scoring AT ALL,
I couldn't make heads from tails from that photo. The orientation is wrong, 90 degrees out. :) And just for the record your Honour, at the time, the dot was in the wrong spot, and there'd been no mention of 5 inches. :D

The 5 inches thing is interesting, in the half a dozen or so radial arms I've pulled off the column. The bore in the arm isn't one continuous bore. They have a journal at the top and a journal at the bottom, In between the bore is relieved. There is no point in going to the trouble of producing long long bore. All the pressure on the bottom is on the side facing the arm, and its diagonal at the top.

You might be able to tell if you rapped on it with a soft faced hammer. It might sound hollow in the mid section.

Still a WAG, could be some thing has fallen down from the top and is / was sitting on the top ledge of the bottom journal. (Rust, Casting sand). And the scoring started from inside the arm.

Regards Phil.
 








 
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