Tool hording.

I have read numerous threads about people trying to sell machine tools and tooling for exorbitant prices. However, I'm sure I've only read a small portion of them. I am wondering if the machine tool industry has always been this way. Back when the U.S. was the cornerstone of manufacturing, did people horde tools and parts and try to get others to cough up big money for them?

Anyway, my latest personal experience in dealing with this involves an ancient CNC control. I have an old Tree Journeyman 330 milling machine that I have been trying to get sorted out. The control has been acting up, and I now need to replace the power supply. Bear in mind that this machine was built in 1985, and there is virtually no support for it. People would just as soon throw stuff like this in the scrap heap than keep it going and being productive. Granted, modern VMCs can make a heck of a lot more parts in far less time, but this old machine would be perfect for helping me make the parts that I plan to do.

So, there are still some parts for these old controls scattered about the country. I managed to get in touch with a fellow that has some, and he wanted to sell me a power supply for $1500. The OEM power supply on this control (Bendix Dynapath System 10) is garbage. To me, it seems VERY undersized for the amount of power it is supposed to delivery. These old machines and controls are scrapped all the time, so I can't imagine that there is much demand for them. I thought that $1500 for a power supply that was used just seemed a bit ridiculous. There is another member that has the same machine and is selling it for peanuts because the CRT is bad. Again, another great machine that is tossed aside because of a minor electrical problem.

Well, whenever people ask for big money for such parts, my initial reaction is to shake my head and tell them to f--- off (only saying it in my head, of course). Someone has something that will allow another person to be productive. However, even if it is of no use to them, the person that has it would rather keep it and try to get top dollar instead of giving it to someone at a price they can afford (so they can continue to work).

In my mind, this sort of mindset is just one more reason our economy (and manufacturing industry) is in the toilet. Am I wrong for thinking and feeling this way? Am I just not understanding something? It seems to me that this would be pretty obvious. Do most people ever wonder if they are part of a disease or part of a cure? I have a Hardinge lathe that I wanted to get a radius attachment for and a Monarch 10EE that could use a steady rest. Again, these parts are worthless to the people that have them and are trying to sell them, yet they don't hesitate in asking for an entire month's expenses in exchange for one. Please pardon my late-night ramblings, but this is something that bothers me as I read through many of the posts here on this great forum.

It's all supply and demand. the price is set by the number of power supplys avalible and the number of people who want to buy them.....

It's not all that hard to build up just about any power supply. or adapt just about any display to a machine, but people seem to be willing to pay big bucks to keep something 'original'...as if that had any sort of real value in an outdated piece of production equipment.

One of the most hilarious examples I've seen in a while is someone paying over $200 for a claimed New Old Stock license plate bracket for a 60's Brit motorcycle. It was a 6" piece of 3/4" mild steel strap with 2 holes & 2 bends...how the hell couild one tell it was NOS anyway??? Been blessed by the Craftsmen of Olde?

Talk to someone who knows basic eletronics & build up a power supply out of current parts...put it in the original box if you like the look...& while you're at it, hook up a 60" flat screen display & an IR remote translator so you can program it from across the room.

Surely better than paying stupid $ for an old & probably marginally reliable part.

Mark in SC

You know I can only go with my experience with Ebay over the past 11 years. In the early days you had the “honest” fellow who took a look around his shop and gave a realistic view on what he could use and what he could get rid of. So if he got a few bucks for the “junk” he was happy. Good deals were plentiful and both parties were happy with the exchange.

Now instead of the “honest” fellow cleaning house, it’s become the “honest” price, or in other words, it’s “gold plated”, rare, one-of-a-kind, and the seller is trolling the auction waters for the one sucker with a wallet bigger than his brain.

Rockfish is right on, it’s greed. And greed is alive and well. Most people seem completely oblivious to the fact that the very same greed is the root cause of all our economic woos that we’ve experienced in the past 18 months.

And of course, everybody is in complete denial, “Whoa! It’s not me! I just need the money to pay for overpriced house I bought and to make the payment on my $60K Ford Super Duty that gets 8MPG. Somebody bought that Widget on Ebay for twice what I’m asking. Take it or leave it…” Most of us just walk away muttering something about sucking eggs under our breath.

It IS all about supply and demand, but if the Widget sits on the shelf, there simply isn’t much of a demand at that price. They’ve become tool hoarders by accident not necessity. That overpriced power supply sitting on the shelf doesn’t feed the kids or pay the bills. They’ll figure it out eventually.

Three options: Scrap the machine, it´s old and worn out anyhow and cannot compete with modern equipment (I don´t say it´s this way, just a guess).

Rebuilt the power supply from new parts or rig up something similar. But stay away from old parts, they tend to be exactly that, old parts with the same problems the other power supply has. There are components that rot to death by simply sitting on a shelf like electrolytic capacitors. 1500 $ is a lot for old spares that are not even NOS.

Switch the machine to something newer, "high power" steppers or even better, servos. Or leave the motors where they are and only change the drivers and the interface. A normal PC can be turned into a CNC controller that is able to interpret G-Code and that has a lot of programming helps pretty cheap. This asks for standard motors but maybe you are lucky. Do you have servos/encoders or big steppers in your machine?

Cheers,
Johann

What TAG said but it looks a lot easier for a retired electronics engineer. :-)
My first reaction to those problems is usually: " I can build a better one than the original".
...lew...

Our desires set the stage for such feelings.

You desire the free use of the machine through the replaced/repaired functionality of a powersupply. The person who has the replacement desires the feling of having got a significant sum by selling something he doesn't need and likely has little invested in.

Old electricals are just that. Give yourself the satisfaction of upgrading.

As far as the hard parts. Wait until the parts are needed and pay what you can afford. In the meanwhile, something might turn up.

I've thrown away a lot of money chasing desire.......

But , that's what I wanted to do with it! ;-)

CalG

The way we were...

Before the reclamation process was in place, there was no perceived value in soda cans. We tossed them without a thought. Now nearly all of us crush or save them for recycling, we perceive value in them, same cans but we do see them differently.

Machines and parts. With industry in boom, surplus was natural. Enter NC/CNC and a subtle shift occurred, less machinist positions, more obsolete machines.

That meant the guys that perceived the value, the would-be machinists, now gainfully employed in new markets, found an inexpensive source for their wants. The sellers were realistic, they'd made the purchase price of the machines many times over and a bigger/better model was on the way. Write-off sealed the deal.

Peddler types noticed the growing exchange with potential margin and the few used machinery dealers swelled. Now profit was a necessity and perceived value shifted. Mix in the inherent greed of some and the natural tendency for all to take what the market will bear. Add Uncle Sams band of thieves, the IRS plus junior gov, that could now pin-point exchanges and did, + 10-20% on top of the increases. Still, the value of the equipment was high compared to the money it brought. With economy in boom, money could be made in store front job shops.

Then the magic, eBay. Millions of folks could find each other, markets for surplus widened dramatically, (finally, I could find what I'd dreamed of) perceived values increased and provided the margin that attracted a whole new breed of peddler. Millions of people opened up digital store fronts. That began squeezing the margin out of the machines and they were moving off-shore in volume to boot. Current exception, with scrap prices down, the ancient crap that I adore, (got's handwheels), is still a tremendous bargain! (my "perception")

"Supply and demand" sounds simplistic but mix in all the variations of buyers and sellers and that is what it boils down to.

When the hogs get loose in the corn field, no hint of aggression, just frenzied feeding but toss a dozen ears in the pig pen.... and boy do the greedy bullies ever stand out.

The new (sorta') salvation? What several above brought up, inexpensive alternates like a wide range of adaptable power supplies still in surplus, combined with the orphaned NC stuff, screw the greedy bastards, let 'um eat their damned junk or starve to death! Yeah, $1,500 for an iffy old 2 pound piece of electronics is a very greedy bastard/extortionist, "over-a-barrel" firmly in lexicon. Richly deserving the no-sale! May he have many more....

In the same vein, the one thing that really doesn't compute to me, in spite of a worsening economy and dramatically reduced sales, (by my observation on eBay), the volume of goods and the prices seem to have increased substantially! Long columns of single-seller items starting like... "Gently used 4" indexible face mill, no inserts, blocks or screws, only BIN $499, retails for over $1,000, $87.41 shipping, as is."

Yeah, right! Gouges and unobtainium type insert pockets apparent, even in the purposely fuzzy single photo. Buyers staying away in droves. Pages of items with the silly eBay note, "time nearly up, no bids, STEAL THIS ITEM NOW!" Precious few "theives". Economy induced frenzy/fear/stupidity? Self-fulfilling prophesy?

Steenking amateur buyers, (my competitors) still paying too much for clapped-out tool post grinders though...

Bob (I did edit out a bunch)

ions82 said:

Anyway, my latest personal experience in dealing with this involves an ancient CNC control. I have an old Tree Journeyman 330 milling machine that I have been trying to get sorted out. The control has been acting up, and I now need to replace the power supply. Bear in mind that this machine was built in 1985, and there is virtually no support for it. People would just as soon throw stuff like this in the scrap heap than keep it going and being productive. Granted, modern VMCs can make a heck of a lot more parts in far less time, but this old machine would be perfect for helping me make the parts that I plan to do.

Click to expand...

You should've mentioned this over lunch - it shouldn't be too hard to fix the old power supply or to rig a replacement, I've got plenty of stuff and can drag Lew in if I need help. Power supply problem are usually easily fixed and if not you can usually find something to replace it (if all it needs is 5 and 12 you can usually rig a computer power supply).