Shim stock under toe clamps to hold vise?

Sendit · Jan 20, 2018

I goofed and order a vise (GMT premium 6”) and looks like I’m gonna have to use the toe clamps to mount the vise where I want it.

I don’t want to mar up my new table so thinking .005 though shim stock should be good to go between the table and clamp?

Typically how much torque are you tightening these down to? 1/2-13 bolt. In class we had a student damage a table because he though he had tighten the ever living crap out of it.

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Red James · Jan 20, 2018

I have no idea what your visor is, but a smooth, clean 1/4" pad under the toe clamp heel will not damage your table any more than a smooth, clean toe clamp heel.

Monarchist · Jan 20, 2018

Sendit said:
I goofed and order a vise (GMT premium 6”) and looks like I’m gonna have to use the toe clamps to mount the visor where I want it.

I don’t want to mar up my new table so thinking .005 though shim stock should be good to go between the table and clamp?

Typically how much torque are you tightening these down to? 1/2-13 bolt. In class we had a student damage a table because he though he had tighten the ever living crap out of it.

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You planning a career with Victoria's Secret for that Mill? Greek wedding, even?

Or expecting to mill stuff?

Sendit · Jan 20, 2018

Monarchist said:
You planning a career with Victoria's Secret for that Mill? Greek wedding, even?

Or expecting to mill stuff?

If you have nothing to contribute to a post don’t post. That simple. Don’t be a asshole

Red James said:
I have no idea what your visor is, but a smooth, clean 1/4" pad under the toe clamp heel will not damage your table any more than a smooth, clean toe clamp heel.

Vise.. fat fingered, sorry

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Monarchist · Jan 20, 2018

Sendit said:
If you have nothing to contribute to a post don’t post. That simple. Don’t be a asshole

If the cosmetic beauty of your mill's table is more important to you than secure clamping and workholding and/or/if torqueing a vanilla 1/2"-13 puts you in fear of damaging it?

Don't mill with it!!!

Go and sit the exam for a wheelbarrow operator's license instead.

THAT simple.

Shit moves on the table whilst in the cut, bad things happen. To the pristine finish, too, BTW.

DavidScott · Jan 20, 2018

I just make sure my toe clamp pads are flat and smooth and tighten the 1/2-13 bolts down to around 40 ft lbs, just a guess, for normal milling in aluminum on my cnc mill. If I was hogging steel then I would tighten them down more. I also put a little way oil under the vise to protect from rust stains. Although I am not worried about the "beauty" of my table I do worry about keeping it flat.

Although my vise is a Kurt I do have Glacern toe clamps, but I did mill the surfaces that contact the vise and table so they are flat and the right distance for my vise.

Sendit · Jan 20, 2018

Monarchist said:
If the cosmetic beauty of your mill's table is more important to you than secure clamping and workholding and/or/if torqueing a vanilla 1/2"-13 puts you in fear of damaging it?

Don't mill with it!!!

Go and sit the exam for a wheelbarrow operator's license instead.

THAT simple.

Shit moves on the table whilst in the cut, bad things happen. To the pristine finish, too, BTW.

I’m not worry about it looking good, concern about keeping it flat. Again no reason to be a asshole. It’s a simple question. I just started classes for CNC last semester.

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michiganbuck · Jan 20, 2018

I like a vise to set full flat on a table so not wanting a shim space under.. a sheet of copy paper if you cant find better..yes perhaps oil both side of the paper..

But it is a mill you can just file and hone the vice bottom.. oil it and put it in place with not marring your table..IMHO..

chips and dropped tools will mark it up in time..

One hand tight is plenty..and a normal wench not a long one..

I like to hone a radius to the vise bottom edges...

Sendit · Jan 20, 2018

DavidScott said:
I just make sure my toe clamp pads are flat and smooth and tighten the 1/2-13 bolts down to around 40 ft lbs, just a guess, for normal milling in aluminum on my cnc mill. If I was hogging steel then I would tighten them down more. I also put a little way oil under the vise to protect from rust stains. Although I am not worried about the "beauty" of my table I do worry about keeping it flat.

Although my vise is a Kurt I do have Glacern toe clamps, but I did mill the surfaces that contact the vise and table so they are flat and the right distance for my vise.

Thanks David

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Monarchist · Jan 20, 2018

DavidScott said:
I just make sure my toe clamp pads are flat and smooth and tighten the 1/2-13 bolts down to around 40 ft lbs, just a guess, for normal milling in aluminum on my cnc mill. If I was hogging steel then I would tighten them down more. I also put a little way oil under the vise to protect from rust stains. Although I am not worried about the "beauty" of my table I do worry about keeping it flat.

Although my vise is a Kurt I do have Glacern toe clamps, but I did mill the surfaces that contact the vise and table so they are flat and the right distance for my vise.

A thin "preservative" oil, well wiped-off so it is really only down in the scratches or such that don't bear, anyway, should be safer than thicker "way" oil. With its usual viscosity, plus tackifiers both working to PREVENT it being squeezed clear away, you'd be reducing the goodness of vise to table grip - requiring greater clamping force.

FWIW whilst many fastener suppliers publish tables of torque specs for studs and bolts by alloy, grade, plating, coatings, and of course - size - MOST cop-out with a note that experimentation is advised also.

John Garner · Jan 20, 2018

Sendit --

Between a machine table and the heel-end packing for a strap-clamp? A quarter-inch thickness of steel flat stock a bit larger than the base of the packing is about right, although thicker and broader is better if the pad bridges a T-slot.

Beyond that, I suggest you take a deep breath and relax. Most people don't take being called an asshole as a compliment, even online, and at the very least think "at least an asshole is good for something"

dgfoster · Jan 20, 2018

Using a sheet of paper under whatever you are clamping to your mill at least doubles its resistance to movement for any given torque on the hold-downs. Oiling the paper prior to placing the vise prevents rust. Test this out by seeing how much effort it takes to slide the unclamped vise on a bare table and then try it with paper under it. Studies have shown that oil increases the stability of the vise onthe table as it takes up the airspace between the table and vise base and damps micromovement of the vise on the table.

Shim stock neither increases friction or damping and does not reduce divots from bits of swarf that might be missed when using your hand as a final wiper prior to placing your vise. Paper does allow a bit of forgiveness for missed grit.

I used oiled paper routinely under my vise. But “protection” of my table is not a primary consideration in that decision. Occasional light stoning keeps the inevitable table ditzels under control.

Denis

adama · Jan 20, 2018

Monarchist said:
Shit moves on the table whilst in the cut, bad things happen. To the pristine finish, too, BTW.

Yeah and if the cut fucks up and don't cut, having to re-tram that vise is the better option too. Think of it like a mechanical fuse, you want it enough to not move in use, but in a oh shit you want it to get knocked out and absorb that energy, because theres far worse things than a mill table thats has a light scruff mark!

To me that general relates to as tight as one hand can easily with out effort do on the end of a std spanner, think the above 40ft lbs ish sounds in the ball park, you certainly don't need hundreds I like 3 clamps too, 2 one side one the other, just kinda works for me and what i do, the forth is always in the way and 3 1/2" bolts is plenty on any machine short of a 50 taper or shaper.

michiganbuck · Jan 20, 2018

Not your case but on a mill table with a hole(wash out area)where a vise might set,. feeler the underside and if not set down solid a shim under is not a bad idea..I don't like a empty space under a vise..any open space at center or at ends is a chance for chatter...

Same goes for a vise not having a flat bottom.. better to spring the vise .001/.002 if needed to make it sit solid on table.

Monarchist · Jan 20, 2018

John Garner said:
Sendit --

Between a machine table and the heel-end packing for a strap-clamp? A quarter-inch thickness of steel flat stock a bit larger than the base of the packing is about right, although thicker and broader is better if the pad bridges a T-slot.

Beyond that, I suggest you take a deep breath and relax. Most people don't take being called an asshole as a compliment, even online, and at the very least think "at least an asshole is good for something"

LOL! If it bothered me in the least, I'd not have been able to take ....meah.. about 47 straight years in leadership or management roles! If they ain't bitchin' they be plotting mischief!

Feel free to call me anything but "late for dinner"! Even that don't really cost me anything. I'm the one cookin'

DavidScott · Jan 20, 2018

Monarchist said:
A thin "preservative" oil, well wiped-off so it is really only down in the scratches or such that don't bear, anyway, should be safer than thicker "way" oil.

With its usual tackifiers meant to PREVENT it being squeezed clear away, you'd be reducing the goodness of vise to table grip - requiring greater clamping force.

FWIW Fastenal and others list the torque specs by alloy, grade, plating, coatings, etc for 1/2"-13 and such.

https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension Chart for A307 Gr5 Gr8 Gr9.pdf

http://www.almabolt.com/pages/catalog/bolts/tighteningtorque.htm

Note a typical 25% range, and "determined experimentally".

Been doing this for 30 years now and I have never had a vise move under normal use. My opinion has been "determined experimentally" and is open to change if the evidence should so indicate. Using flood coolant I try to minimize the contaminants, since the mill dumps plenty of #2 way oil into the coolant already that is my preferred oil to use. Maybe it is not perfect but it just works.

Monarchist · Jan 20, 2018

dgfoster said:
Using a sheet of paper under whatever you are clamping to your mill at least doubles its resistance to movement for any given torque on the hold-downs. Oiling the paper prior to placing the vise prevents rust. Test this out by seeing how much effort it takes to slide the unclamped vise on a bare table and then try it with paper under it. Studies have shown that oil increases the stability of the vise onthe table as it takes up the airspace between the table and vise base and damps micromovement of the vise on the table.

Shim stock neither increases friction or damping and does not reduce divots from bits of swarf that might be missed when using your hand as a final wiper prior to placing your vise. Paper does allow a bit of forgiveness for missed grit.

I used oiled paper routinely under my vise. But “protection” of my table is not a primary consideration in that decision. Occasional light stoning keeps the inevitable table ditzels under control.

Denis

Now theres something I'd like to ask the Grown Ups meself.

Brown "Kraft" paper is a not uncommon recommendation. Not so much for mills, AFAIK, (I have never. Not YET, anyway..) but fair standard for SG mag vise bases.

I happen to stash VPI papers. Looks to be same paper stock, just chemically-treated.

Seems to me, if paper is to be used at all, it may just as well be one with a smidge of corrosion-inhibitor already in it.

Anyone had any long-term experience with whether this makes it better? Or makes it worse - given that coolant can tilt the playing field, chemically?

DavidScott · Jan 20, 2018

Monarchist said:
Now theres something I'd like to ask the Grown Ups meself.

Brown "Kraft" paper is a not uncommon recommendation. Not so much for mills, AFAIK, (I have never. Not YET, anyway..) but fair standard for SG mag vise bases.

I happen to stash VPI papers. Looks to be same paper stock, just chemically-treated.

Seems to me, if paper is to be used at all, it may just as well be one with a smidge of corrosion-inhibitor already in it.

Anyone had any long-term experience with whether this makes it better? Or makes it worse - given that coolant can tilt the playing field, chemically?

I have an excellent application to test it on and have been looking for this idea, thank you. I will add some to my upcomming McMaster order and try it out.

Edit; Nevermind, 300 ft mimimum. I will have to find it somewhere else.

michiganbuck · Jan 20, 2018

OT; Brown "Kraft" paper ... a fresh brown parer bag is made to food quality specifications. Not made of garbage and old newspapers like much paper.. the glue in the paper is a very good for a stop the bleeding compress. I keep such a bag in my backpack going into the wilderness or just a short hike.

Neighbor at Kelly Road Camp who has about 9 miles of dirt track to get to a paved road said he thought he would bleed out after he cut his leg almost to the bone..A piece or rope, screw diver and a brown paper compress would have been my remedy..

My dad almost bleed out after getting shot in the arm and used a red rag and a channel lock to stop the bleeding

Agree simple copy paper is fine for a vise..and oiled even better.

John Garner · Jan 20, 2018

Even really good paper is cheap, and I follow the advise I was given by a damn-near-genius toolmaker about fifty years ago: "acid-free, archival grade bond paper, saturated with USP-grade petrolatum or an acid-free oil such as Mobil Vactra"

John

Shim stock under toe clamps to hold vise?

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