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LCHIP -

Good article. It does not surprise me at all that there are now remedial classes for engineering students to learn some practical tool use. I started my education in mechanical engineering on the 10th of September 1966 (and am amazed at where the years have gone!). At my school that was the first year that a machining course was not part of the curriculum. Many of us had grown up learning to fix things - I assumed anyone who wanted to be a mechanical engineer would have rebuilt an engine, painted a car, knew how to weld, could do basic carpentry, plumbing and electrical, etc. prior to starting college. But I discovered that even in those days there were some who were very book smart but were very dangerous with a wrench or a hammer, much less any power machinery. And I know it has only gotten worse.

Hopefully we have hit bottom as a society and are on the way back up. Can't get much worse, in my opinion. About 15 years ago or so I was in charge of getting a complex electronic system stuffed into an armored vehicle. Culture of the plant was electronic - so the mechanical design engineers were somewhat out of their element as they were not used to dealing with 'heavy junk' (and my weird background in that area was suddenly valuable - but I was the dumb operations guy, manufacturing engineering / manufacturing manage). Due to some upper management incompetence those of us who put tops on bottoms had to work the Christmas shutdown. So at 6 AM on 26 December one of my technicians and I were trying to bolt up a large assembly - mounting holes did not line up. Being the pain that I am I called the lead mechanical engineer at home, got him out of bed and told him I was red lining his prints, hogging out the mounting holes and putting it together. 30 minutes later he shows up, and decides to help us as we were just aligning this 7 foot long assembly on the outside of the vehicle. I'm not paying attention to what the engineer is doing, as we are all up on staging and I am running a bolt in (3/4 inch if I remember correctly). Suddenly my tech jumps over me, cursing a blue streak (good old Navy guy that he is) and screaming at the engineer to stop. Engineer had been helping by torquing the bolts to spec - tech had handed him a torque wrench that he had set to the proper value. Engineer heard the clicking and just kept on pulling. He admitted, when stopped, that he had never used a torque wrench in his life and did not know the click was the indication he had reached torque. Neither of us had not even thought of it - to us, a senior mechanical engineer HAD to know how something as basic as a torque wrench worked. Both of us did! And both of us had know it since we were 13 or so. But he did not. And he was not a 'bad' engineer either - just one of a generation of technical people this country trained with no practical skills whatsoever.

Somewhere on the web I have seen a tag line - might have been here - that one should know how to do a whole list of things - build a house, butcher a hog, etc - basically be self sufficient (although I always laughed at the planning an invasion that was on the list - I can do that one also, like too many other over trained guys). That is how it used to be. Joe Michaels, who posts on here, is liable to respond to this also. He is going one further, training an apprentice. I hope to do that with my 6 year old 'shadow' (grandson) who the family says got the engineer/mechanic genes - last week he decided we needed to build an electric motor, so we did. My only problem is that it worked fine, even after he wanted to add an on/off switch - then announces 'now we can build a bigger, more powerful one'. But Joe and I were dinosaurs, engineers who also could do the work thanks to the people who trained them. As a manager I always made sure to be certified on many of the tasks we had to do - both to understand what was needed and also to be able to lend a hand when we were swamped. And Joe always seems to have operated the same way.

I forwarded this link to my junior high school shop teacher - he actually taught me a lot back in 7th and 8th grade. He later became my brother in law when I married his kid sister - and he helped me build our house. It's guys like him who shoveled against the tide for years and years that kept enough of the flame alive that maybe we can rebound.

Dale
 
LCHIP -

Somewhere on the web I have seen a tag line - might have been here - that one should know how to do a whole list of things - build a house, butcher a hog, etc - basically be self sufficient (although I always laughed at the planning an invasion that was on the list - I can do that one also, like too many other over trained guys).

Dale

I sort of remembered the quote you speak of, but had to search to confirm it:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
— Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

[from Competent man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ]
 
We are no where near the bottom...not even close.

At least the engi had the sense to admit that he had never used one, not in the first place, but at least at last.

I certainly hope we never reach rock bottom in my life time (selfish I know!) but we will sometime sadly. Only through strife, does one actually grow, very little is learned when things "go well".

My thoughts.
 
Just read this article and found it interesting, especially the comment about the remideal traing class for engeneers.

JMHO, but those comments are rather asinine. Any good engineering school will require the students pass at least a few hands-on courses in the trades within their first two years, students are then required to get into the shop on their own time or during an "open lab" period throughout their remaining classes and fabricate/build their design projects. I went to a tiny po-dunk NY state school and I came away having taken several machine ops courses, a welding certification, and fair proficiencies in two CAM packages and two 3d modeling packages. Really wish I'd taken the foundry course and taken the test for other certs offered. Even the local U here which bills itself as a "research based university" has a huge shop program, Ive bought several small Purdue anvil paperweights cast by students locally. Yes, Im sure there are "engineers" out there who couldnt change a lathe chuck bc they were never taught or havent done so this decade, but that doesnt mean they shouldnt have been or werent taught at one point.

JMO as well, but the entire premise of the article is rather silly. Sounds to me like the kid got his current job more because the local dealer was desperate for people and/or didnt want to pay anybody with experience, not bc he took shop in school.
 
Any good engineering school will require the students pass at least a few hands-on courses in the trades within their first two years, students are then required to get into the shop on their own time or during an "open lab" period throughout their remaining classes and fabricate/build their design projects.
I can't agree with your comment . The school where I got my mechanical engineering degree did not offer any hands on electives in any of the trades. I did take a machining course at the local vocational school that was offered to the general public on saturday mornings but it was not organized by the Eng program . I graduated more then 20 years ago and even then I would say more then half the class had little to no Hands on exposure to trades. In fact i suspect a few of the students may never have held a screw driver. The department did have a very well equipped machine shop in the basement as well as a welding shop and students who could show a proficiency were able to use these shops but certainly there were members of the class who never passed through the doors of these shops. At the time the mechanical engineering program that I took was supposed to rated as 22nd out of 272 Mechanical engineering programs north America wide
 
I can't agree with your comment . The school where I got my mechanical engineering degree did not offer any hands on electives in any of the trades. I did take a machining course at the local vocational school that was offered to the general public on saturday mornings but it was not organized by the Eng program . I graduated more then 20 years ago and even then I would say more then half the class had little to no Hands on exposure to trades. In fact i suspect a few of the students may never have held a screw driver. The department did have a very well equipped machine shop in the basement as well as a welding shop and students who could show a proficiency were able to use these shops but certainly there were members of the class who never passed through the doors of these shops. At the time the mechanical engineering program that I took was supposed to rated as 22nd out of 272 Mechanical engineering programs north America wide
My degree program did, but it's Mechanical Engineering Technology, and is thus somewhat more trades based.
 
I went through an industrial arts program in college, geared for most for teaching in secondary schools. I lived in a hallway with a lot of engineers of all stripes, and often did machining, welding and so forth for them. One fellow gave me a print of what was an overgrown hinge, with rolled up knuckles for holding the pins.....two required. I built them as asked, but really knew he needed a left and right to function.......He was not happy, but looking back, this was most likely his most important lesson of the quarter!
 
One fellow gave me a print of what was an overgrown hinge, with rolled up knuckles for holding the pins.....two required. I built them as asked, but really knew he needed a left and right to function.......He was not happy, but looking back, this was most likely his most important lesson of the quarter!

When I was studying Mechanical Engineering the Machinist who ran the department machine shop was a crusty old guy that was famous for making a part as drawn or simply refusing to make the part because some detail was missing from the drawing even though he knew well what was needed. He didn't make many friends but he taught valuable lessons to students and proffs from time to time. I can remember once when a couple students came into the shop asking for a piece of metal sized X by Y and it was obvious to all they needed a piece of sheet metal. Nick asked for the third dimension. The students said there was no third dimension. The argument went back and forth a little and the students went away angry. Shortly their proffessor shows up and asks why Nick wouldn't supply the students with a piece of metal. again instead of asking "how thick" he askes for the third dimension and same argument and the professor goes a way angry
 
When I was studying Mechanical Engineering the Machinist who ran the department machine shop was a crusty old guy that was famous for making a part as drawn or simply refusing to make the part because some detail was missing from the drawing even though he knew well what was needed. He didn't make many friends but he taught valuable lessons to students and proffs from time to time. I can remember once when a couple students came into the shop asking for a piece of metal sized X by Y and it was obvious to all they needed a piece of sheet metal. Nick asked for the third dimension. The students said there was no third dimension. The argument went back and forth a little and the students went away angry. Shortly their proffessor shows up and asks why Nick wouldn't supply the students with a piece of metal. again instead of asking "how thick" he askes for the third dimension and same argument and the professor goes a way angry

Running a university shop seems to make one enjoy encounters like that more any normal person should.

We have a machining lab, welding lab, and cnc class/lab here but they aren't mandatory. There is also a student shop where if they show proficiency they can have access to it that has the normal mill, lathe, welders, plasma, torch, saws, etc. It wouldn't surprise me to see programs that rise up the rankings to be in the top 25 of engineering schools start loosing some of the hands on lab programs because you can only get so many students through there, takes up lots of time, and it isn't what helps them rise up the rankings. Not just for machining, but other labs as well.
 
Since I found this thread yesterday it's sparked some good conversations among my friends. I had a friend of mine post it to his facebook page as he has a lot more, and a more diverse, friends in his pool, dozens of whom we share, so it was self-serving too. Discussion was interesting. No one disagreed with the article. No one. The academic types, including professors at universities and 'career academics' as I refer to them (research based careers) all thought that the university system was broken.

General consensus is that universities would be better served if they moved engineering to a more vocational study where they didn't take so much "basket weaving" classes.

Anyways, everyone was very encouraging of more people getting into the skilled trades. I couldn't find one person who "didn't see why this is a problem". No one argued that tradesmen make more money out of the gate and, at the least, for a very long time before an academically-empowered person makes more money, if they even land a job with their degree (to which the percentage of people /using/ their degree is also quickly diminishing).

The best thing about vocational schools is that industry has direct input and control over them. If they put out a crappy product (students) then their students won't be as readily hired or at lease are at a disadvantage. Some schools work with local businesses and shops to ensure their curriculum is MARKETABLE and that it makes their students more EMPLOYABLE. Such a thing would be a SHOCK to the academia-minded universities who somehow think that academia should dictate the industry.
 
I can't agree with your comment . The school where I got my mechanical engineering degree did not offer any hands on electives in any of the trades.
Mine didn't either over thirty years ago, although I remember seeing a large machine shop on the way to a lab. They still don't offer hands-on anything as an elective. I wish they would. Jim
 
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The best thing about vocational schools is that industry has direct input and control over them. If they put out a crappy product (students) then their students won't be as readily hired or at lease are at a disadvantage. Some schools work with local businesses and shops to ensure their curriculum is MARKETABLE and that it makes their students more EMPLOYABLE. Such a thing would be a SHOCK to the academia-minded universities who somehow think that academia should dictate the industry.

I am reluctant to make blanket statements about schools and education, but more and more I think I am comfortable saying that the higher education industry in this country is falling apart.

I work with a lot of young engineers. Some are pretty good to work with, and some are just worthless. I suspect it has more to do with the quality of the student than the quality of the program. I actually had one of the young guys that I thought was decent tell me that one of the things they taught them was that when they got out into the real job world they would encounter old guys who would try to give them advise and tell them how to do things. The professor said these old guys would tell them that they had been in the industry for xx years and they knew what would work. The professor told them to ignore these old know it all fools. Said if those guys had any brains they would have gone to college and gotten a good job instead of being a knuckle dragger their whole career. Basically, your smart, their not. Don't forget that. Luckily, the young engineer decided the professor was the one who wasn't very smart and he worked with us, asked questions and accepted advise.

Trade schools really aren't much better. I have hired mechanics out of some of the big name trade schools and some of those guys ended up being pretty decent, and some couldn't change oil without help.

I honestly think that if you go to college or trade school and your tuition check doesn't bounce you will get a degree.

All that said, I think shop programs in high school really do have a lot of value. There are a lot of young kids that don't realize they have any interest or a talent for a trade until they are exposed to it in a school shop class. I don't think high school shop classes should be viewed as taking the place of an apprenticeship or other training. They are not going to produce someone who is ready to enter the job market, but they do give kids a general knowledge base about what is involved in building and making things and a percentage of the students find an interest in something that often leads to a good career.

My son is 25 years old and didn't go to college or trade school. He is making close to 6 figures working on natural gas compressors. He just has a real talent for understanding what is going on with them and has a lot of natural mechanical ability. He spent the first 5 years of his career right out of high school working for an automotive shop. He got that job because he got A grades in the course and his high school shop teacher recommended him. After he got some experience to open the door, he went to work on stationary engines and gas compressors. When he interviewed for the compression job they didn't even care that he didn't go to trade school. He passed their hands on tests and answered the questions correctly. He had never worked on big compressors, but had studied up on them a little and had a basic idea of how they worked which also impressed the interviewers. They hired him as an entry level mechanic. By the end of his first year they had given him 5 dollars an hour in pay raises and put him in a field service truck.

Better than half the guys my son hung around with in high school went to college. Those guys got some debt to show for it and a few of them finished and got a degree. One of the guys that got a degree is working at the local K-Mart, another one is working in the crusher at a local coal mine. I don't know what happened to all of them, but to my knowledge none of them are in first rate careers yet. One of his friends that also skipped college went to work on a oil drilling rig and makes more money than my son does.

There are still a lot of jobs that need guys who can think and work with tools. Fixing things and making things are good trades to go into for young people. For the last 3 decades high schools have been telling kids that the only way to make a good living was to go to college. In my opinion that was because the one giving the advise went to college and doesn't know anything else. That and colleges are a big business. The result has been lots of people with worthless college degrees and a shortage of young technical and skilled trade people.
 
No disrespect intended to anyone, but I find the previously mentioned "rankings" rather humorous in most cases simply bc the "rankings" usually defy common sense. Some considerations like graduation rate, SAT/ACT score, program size, and/or "reputation" simply shouldnt be factors but usually are heavily weighted when "rankings" are given and considered ass backwards if anything. Its the "new math." Somehow higher graduation rates and grades mean students are doing better than ever, not that the grading system has been skewed and is simply catering to the masses. SAT/ACT score equals intelligence of the students and intelligence equals ability to graduate (yea, right). Also, contrary to popular opinion, taking the SAT/ACTs is optional at most schools. Similarly, larger programs are ALWAYS better, bc "better" means taught by a 3rd or 4th year student TA, rather than a phd....not to mention most of the "rankings" dont rank programs <~100 students. Another point concerning program size that folks need to consider is available facilities, its great a big school has a huge research department but if students cant get involved theyre just adding excess cost to the bill. I also really love it when "rankings" consider reputation, thats probably the most comical of the bunch bc often its "reputation" amongst college administrators, not working professionals.

When I went to college, with one MSME exception EVERY professor in the program had their phd and was a retired engineer, not a BSME/MSME with no experience and certainly not a TA. I was taught by experts in the field from day one. The department head also said it flat out - "we are here to make you FAIL." <10% graduated, those that did had an excellent education. I graduated at the top of the program with a 3.2 GPA, and was hired out of school for more than a MIT grad who started the same week. Now chasing a master's part time, Ive found most of the local "top 10 ranked" school's students sadly lacking and have not recommended one for hiring here bc in the real world, knowledge and ability count, not grades or the "ranking" of the school.

I honestly think that if you go to college or trade school and your tuition check doesn't bounce you will get a degree.

Sad but true at most schools today.
 








 
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