Spindle for Hardinge HSL 59/DV 59.

Folks,

I have 3 Hardinge HSL-59's that need new spindles. Unfortunately, Hardinge has taken the parts sales back in house. I absolutely dread dealing with Hardinge directly, not to mention, that they won't sell the spindles directly to me. They told me that they need to rebuild the machine in house. What a joke! The machine is probably 40 years old and the process of installing the bearings and spindle is not that complex. We have the ability to do pretty much anything they would do at their shop. On top of everything else, the price is somewhere around 3x's the price of a good used HSL 59. Can anyone help me getting a hold of these spindles? The Hardinge part is VD0000283D. Any help would be appreciated.

cbultemeier said:

Folks,

I have 3 Hardinge HSL-59's
.
.
probably 40 years old

Click to expand...

Be grateful I am not the "bean counter" you have to ask for budget to cover that.

You - or your replacement - would be sent off to look at a NOT "40 year old" CNC something-or-other that could outperform the lot of them, and with reduced space, staff, and overhead costs.

Time machines are for moving picture shows, antiques for museums, "Grand Old Iron" for repair, hobby, and retiree shops.

None of those are much use for revenoo-earning in a tough economy at wages prevailing in Indiana, PRESENT DAY, and going forward, not backward.

I have an orphan spindle with the threaded nose, if that is of interest. It came from a machine that sat out long enough to get the threads rusty.

I also have a complete (less motor) HSL in good shape that has had the taper nose spindle removed for shipping to me. Don't think I will ever need to put it back together, so I guess it is for sale.

Best of all, I am in Fort Wayne.

Larry

Monarchist said:

Time machines are for moving picture shows, antiques for museums, "Grand Old Iron" for repair, hobby, and retiree shops.

None of those are much use for revenoo-earning in a tough economy at wages prevailing in Indiana, PRESENT DAY, and going forward, not backward.

Click to expand...

What utter bollox!

Limy Sami said:

What utter bollox!

Click to expand...

Perhaps. But money-making bollox. It ain't 40 years ago no more. Anywhere.

Anything small enough to fit those machines is small enough to be made anywhere. Shipping costs as low as they are, that can include via priority air from some other continent.

How long d'you figure a shop can hold back that tide when others have moved out ahead of them 20 and more years ago, already?

"Outsourcing" isn't always a management decision. Sometimes you just beat yerself by dying in place.

If and where a machine of this sort really, really CAN still earn a crust in some niche?

Then it can afford to buy NEW replacements for itself when worn out. Preferably BETTER ones, even so.

ELSE NOT when the math is no longer favorable.

What's the specific issue with the spindles? Worn surfaces, damage to the nose, or ? There's a lot of good buildup methods for worn shafts, including a variety of flame spray and plating options, so perhaps that's a fix that could be investigated. Along with fresh bearings and proper install, you could be (near) good as new.

Monarchist said:

None of those are much use for revenoo-earning in a tough economy at wages prevailing in Indiana, PRESENT DAY, and going forward, not backward.

Click to expand...

Monarchist, Thermite, whoever the heck you are today, your postings have been trending toward the elliptic, cryptic and idiosyncratic end of the spectrum for some time. But I usually don't disagree very strongly with the portions I manage to decypher from your personal "l33t363vk".

In this case, I disagree. I challenge you to assemble (on paper) a 2nd operations cell for small parts, complete with competent small-parts handling robot system, magazine loaders, and your choice of midget 2 axis CNC lathe for as little as 500X the current market price of an HSL-59. I would then like to see your numbers of the subsequent operating costs of that modern manufacturing cell against the wages+benefits of the typical human who operates an HSL-59 (or other comparable speed lathe). Similar hard numbers can be estimated for cell- and manual-based production rates. The point of this challenge is not to rival the production speed of a transfer line or other dedicated mass production plant. Rather the challenge is to rival the manufacturing flexibility of a manual speed lathe with widely available and diverse tooling which can be reconfigured to work on different parts with minimal delay, cost or difficulty. That is where your robot+CNC system is going to have to dig deep.

With those numbers in hand, we can estimate how long our hypothetical manufacturer must survive the debt load of its initial capital investment in a manufacturing cell in order to start seeing a return on its investment. At which point our descendants will all point at this archaic lashup and laugh in mockery of us both.

There is still very much a niche for speed lathes, multi-spindle automatics, and even turret lathes at points in the space of volume and cost.

sfriedberg said:

There is still very much a niche for speed lathes, multi-spindle automatics, and even turret lathes at points in the space of volume and cost.

Click to expand...

Surely there are. . where any of those do, in fact, have a niche.

The OP hasn't SAID if his model resembles your model or NOT. Only that spindles alone cost more than entire used lathes, same model. N'er mind for a moment why the spindles are so costly. Why are the entire lathes NOT? Fewer folks needing them?

OP, his firm, not WE, should take a hard look and a sharp pencil to HIS numbers.

Keeping whatever is actually THERE competitive cannot be based on just in-house costs, no matter how well the math OR the management is done.

It wants relevant numbers run against outside options as well. And frequently.

Regular part of Business decision making. Lathes and spindles are just today's blue-plate menu.

I just ignore foolish comments like that. The individual can't even begin to imagine the application that we use these for.

Monarchist said:

N'er mind for a moment why the spindles are so costly. Why are the entire lathes NOT? Fewer folks needing them?

Click to expand...

Let me draw your attention to the asking price on HSL-59s. This is frequently 2x or 3x the price of a DV-59 or DSM-59. As the market is neither transparent nor fluid, this is not conclusive evidence, but it does support a position that the speed lathe model is more sought after than the larger, more capable between centers or turret lathe models.

If you were hinting obliquely at something else, I can't imagine what. Manual lathes being less popular than two generations ago? Repair parts being more expensive that entire used machines? Certainly true, and not unique to speed lathes in any way.

I doubt the OP wanted to be told how to run his business. The answer to his question lies in the post itself. Probably nobody has NOS spindles. So..
I would just ask on here for parts from hopeless machines, or just keep an eye on used Hardinges. A lot of times they are cheap because they have been stripped of the tailstock/compound/cutoff etc. Of course, a used spindle is a crap shoot. It would help, if he would comment on what the spindle problem was,

regards,

Jon P.

You're right, I understand this. I have already had a local machine re-builder look into the machines and we have purchased bearings and what not. The machine re-builder had our current spindle out to have it reworked which would have been fine if we exclusively used collets other than step collets. Unfortunately we use step collets nearly 100% of the time. Since the spindles were just reground without being built up, the collest won't draw down before spindle face bottoms out on the back face of the collet. We actually have the ability to regrind and rework the spindles in house if they have enough material to work with.

So flame-spray and regrind, or pocket the nose and make a hardened insert, grind that in.

jpevner said:

I doubt the OP wanted to be told how to run his business. The answer to his question lies in the post itself. Probably nobody has NOS spindles. So..
I would just ask on here for parts from hopeless machines, or just keep an eye on used Hardinges. A lot of times they are cheap because they have been stripped of the tailstock/compound/cutoff etc. Of course, a used spindle is a crap shoot. It would help, if he would comment on what the spindle problem was,

regards,

Jon P.

Click to expand...

I may be wrong, but I ass u me'd that he had already refinished them, and more than once, to have gotten to the point where NEW had to happen.

Now... 50 years ago, it was not easy to do what Hardinge did best with any but machines from a very few niche competitors, all - or nearly all - were smaller firms than Hardinge, hence riskier, long-term, to bet a company on.

Times change. Newer tech let other entrants catch up. Hardinge eventually went to buying-in or re-badging other maker's goods themselves. Their "Golden Age" had lasted a VERY long time, but not quite "forever".

Even if this is the most hard-edged manual niche left on the entire Planet, new spindles for 40-year old machines in this capacity range just CANNOT be the only viable option.

240 inch swing, 120 foot bed? Massive hor-bore? Different stories.

And BTW. "Outsourcing" does not mean just "China". Not by a long shot.

Just among those I have paid attention to, it has included:
USA => Swiss
Germany => Swiss
Germany => France
France and/or Germany => Spain
Swiss => Turkey
USA => Japan
Japan => UK
US => Czech Republic

... and great deal more, Poland, Ireland, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Brazil, Portugal, and even the Philippines. China? That, too. But hardly an exclusive.

Labour RATES may even be HIGHER on some of these, but a more appropriate set of machinery and the expertise to apply it - profitably and well for both parties - was found to exist.

Close your mind too often. Expect the doors to follow.

sfriedberg. Amen! This is the exact situation that we have exploited with many of our competitors. Most of the shops that specialized in our niche, who believed they could take over strictly with CNC's, have died a slow painful death. There are only a handful that still survive worldwide these days.

Not sure of why the dread of dealing with Hardinge directly. I just purchased spindle bearings for my HXL. It was not supported directly but the parts lady looked up the numbers and they were the same as the HC chucker. I bought two sets for about $350. per set. No mus and no fuss. I would check with them anyway, you maybe pleasantly surprized.

Milland, This is a possibility. I'm just seeing if there is someone out there that has the ability of purchasing these spindles from Hardinge. They wouldn't even quote for me without telling me they need to be rebuilt at Hardinge. I have re-worked or replaced nearly all of the consumable parts on these machines otherwise. Just wanting to replace the spindles for the first time in 40+ years. These machines can't be beat for our application.....small footprint and bullet proof. Plus we can machine 10 different sizes of parts without any change over.

cbultemeier said:

They wouldn't even quote for me without telling me they need to be rebuilt at Hardinge.

Click to expand...

They probably want to grind the tapers after the spindle is assembled. Ask how much.

FredC said:

They probably want to grind the tapers after the spindle is assembled. Ask how much.

Click to expand...

My understanding is that the 1.250" I.D., the forcing cone, and the chuck mounting taper are left unfinished after finishing all other dimensions on a new spindle. Then those three dimensions that hold the 5C collet and the chucks are ground to size after installing the new spindle with new precision bearings in the headstock. That is how they get the best possible runout and it makes selling a new spindle by itself impossible. So you find a used spindle, a whole used machine, of find a way to repair the old spindle.

Larry

cbultemeier said:

can't even begin to imagine the application that we use these for.

Click to expand...

With a different mount..

View attachment 203928

.. that permits replacing only the worn portion of the closer, it isn't something I'd have to "begin to imagine", is it?



Figure out how to replicate only that closer portion, no D1-3, finish-grind it in-place, you should have enough less hang-out to work on your smaller spindle. With its integral 5C no longer a limitation, no new spindle is required.

And no, I am not suggesting a 10EE as a Hardinge replacement.

I just have more fondness for Hardinge 4-Ways, collet, turret, and other tooling systems than for their tiny lathes.