Spindle regrinding service in Northern Europe?

Luke Rickert · Sep 14, 2017

Hi I have a spindle out of a Schaublin 13 mill high speed head that is currently intended for use with a collet that is similar but different from ER20 collets. It has a 15 degree angle rather than the ER's 8 degree so there is "extra" material that needs to be removed. The spindle is integrated with a large gear so making a new one is not a good option.

I would like to find a company that can machine/grind the spindle nose out to an ER20 profile so I can actually use the head as I only have one 6mm collet for it right now and cannot find any more or even identify the collet. I could in theory hard turn it on my Schaublin 135 lathe but I am a little worried about messing up a part I cannot easily replace.

One concern of grinding the spindle is that it may only be case hard which would mean my new surface would be soft so perhaps I should insert a hardened sleeve and grind it out to a smaller ER16 and make a custom nut. (the current threads are M25x1,5 so a normal ER20 nut will work)

thanks

Luke

MattiJ · Sep 14, 2017

You probably have something in Norway and should have plenty of options in Sweden. Around here 2 companies came to my mind: (Maybe they are more specialized to "in-situ" spindle grinding)
English
Karan hionta – Prove Koneistus

edit: Sliping - Ljungmann AS ?

Stvy · Sep 19, 2017

Hi,

I am not a customer, but I've heard good things about these guys from a spindle job done for a hobbyist I know (Brown and sharpe to R8 modification) although that was a long long time ago...

Spindle Services | Spindle repair, refurbishment and spindle manufacture. Machine tooling and reclaimation services.

regards,
Steve

Luke Rickert · Sep 19, 2017

Thanks Steve, they will do the job (grind it out and then hard chrome the now soft surface) but it will around 300 GBP which is fair given the work involved but requires me to think about for a moment. It is cheaper than finding another high speed head but a fair chunk of change for a head that isn't likely to see much use. I might try making an adapter of some sort first and then send it out if I can't make it work.

Luke

Stvy · Sep 19, 2017

Luke,

Not a bad price considering what is involved on a one off job, and because your head as it stands has little value to you or most likely anyone else. but afterwards it will.

What is the spec on the gear?

HPC Gears: MANUFACTURER AND STOCKIST OF GEAR TRANSMISSION PRODUCTS.

Which would reduce the scope of just making a new spindle.

I've sent you a PM.

Regards,
Steve

Limy Sami · Sep 19, 2017

FWIW ''shop made'' collets of the ER -ish pattern, made from something like EN24T (4340 HT??) will last wel in a home shop / light use environment, and are not THAT hard to make.

Discounting your time, 300 quid is a lotta EN24T, and won't put your spindle at risk.

Monarchist · Sep 19, 2017

whidbey said:
Thanks Steve, they will do the job (grind it out and then hard chrome the now soft surface) but it will around 300 GBP which is fair given the work involved but requires me to think about for a moment. It is cheaper than finding another high speed head but a fair chunk of change for a head that isn't likely to see much use. I might try making an adapter of some sort first and then send it out if I can't make it work.

Luke

What Sami said.

"Adapter" really IS the way forward.

It can be to a QC system - I like PDQ-Marlin, but there are plenty of others.

It can be to a Master ER - or more than ONE size of ER. Or TG, or .. or ...
It can be to any of MANY things and SEVERAL things.

No more work on the spindle itself but a careful de-burr, ascertaining the taper angle and size accurately to be able to turn one or more adapter tails - or to modify a straight-shank integral tail, store-bought.

"No brainer" AFAICS, vs altering a spindle.

Of any kind.

Luke Rickert · Sep 19, 2017

I will try making adapters. There is no harm. The interface is not ideal as the internal taper is very short (only the first 5mm or so of depth is ground, then it drops off. it looks kind of like this.

The taper angle is around 15 degrees (compared to ER's 8degrees)
The nose is supposed to look like this:

Which is from the Schaublin drawing of this very part, nearly 50 years after the fact they have no other drawings in their records but it has been a long time so who knows. It must have been a special job. If it was done by the customer I can see no indication of a sleeve etc.

I think the best thing would be to make a new ER20 nose that I can somehow locate in the old one. If the smaller bore (13mm) in the Schaublin drawing) it would make for a better way to locate a new part when combined with the front taper.

that PDQ Marlin system looks cool (thinking of my main ISO30 head) any idea what it costs? Guessing a couple grand to get setup with 10 holders right.

Luke

MattiJ · Sep 19, 2017

I would first attempt to do the spindle grinding myself and if it seems not to work out send it for pro's before running out of material

Limy Sami · Sep 19, 2017

whidbey said:
I will try making adapters. There is no harm. The interface is not ideal as the internal taper is very short (only the first 5mm or so of depth is ground, then it drops off. it looks kind of like this.
View attachment 208313
The taper angle is around 15 degrees (compared to ER's 8degrees)
The nose is supposed to look like this:
View attachment 208315

Which is from the Schaublin drawing of this very part, nearly 50 years after the fact they have no other drawings in their records but it has been a long time so who knows. It must have been a special job. If it was done by the customer I can see no indication of a sleeve etc.

I think the best thing would be to make a new ER20 nose that I can somehow locate in the old one. If the smaller bore (13mm) in the Schaublin drawing) it would make for a better way to locate a new part when combined with the front taper.

that PDQ Marlin system looks cool (thinking of my main ISO30 head) any idea what it costs? Guessing a couple grand to get setup with 10 holders right.

Luke

No BS, that taper is as close as a piece of piss you'll get to make collets for using my above method, and with 13 mm the largest shank you can hold, nd in that size and type of machine ......you ain't going to be hogging.

Luke Rickert · Sep 19, 2017

One really has to wonder why someone spent good money to get it made this way

For the purpose ER20 is fine, The head is for light work and "high" speeds. Trying to run small carbide endmills at 2k rpm just doesn't make sense, 6.5k or whatever this goes to is the point, It isn't 10k or 18k but it is much better. The quill is also a nice thing for drilling small holes etc.
L

Limy Sami · Sep 19, 2017

whidbey said:
One really has to wonder why someone spent good money to get it made this way

For the purpose ER20 is fine, The head is for light work and "high" speeds. Trying to run small carbide endmills at 2k rpm just doesn't make sense, 6.5k or whatever this goes to is the point, It isn't 10k or 18k but it is much better. The quill is also a nice thing for drilling small holes etc.
L

When that machine was built carbide end mills were hardly heard of.

Luke Rickert · Sep 19, 2017

Ok a 3mm HSS cutter or small drill then

Monarchist · Sep 19, 2017

whidbey said:
that PDQ Marlin system looks cool (thinking of my main ISO30 head) any idea what it costs? Guessing a couple grand to get setup with 10 holders right.

Luke

I put an e-mail RFQ in that I need to chase-up. Wanted a VS on #9 B&S tail. Also a VS on 40-taper, which they usually have only on 30-taper. Size "S" goes onto 40 taper.

Even if they won't DOO those, I'll prolly buy an "S" set. My VS set is 30-taper, modified for #9 BS, but still fits 30-taper, and I have 30 taper to 40 taper adapters.

I'd guess "coupla grand" at mebbe HALF what they'll be asking.

Good system, but not cheap to make those tri-lobe locking heads & master holders.

MattiJ · Sep 19, 2017

Limy Sami said:
When that machine was built carbide end mills were hardly heard of.

OT: when did the solid carbide endmills come up? Eighties?

Limy Sami · Sep 20, 2017

Good Q Matti, .......I'm talking general trade and job shops here, not big corps etc etc, ..............thinking back I bought some in the early 90's for a CI job,......and they came from ''an ordinary engineer merchants'' who basically stocked them for one special customer, ......but told me they sold very few otherwise, I can't remember the brand, but they weren't British, .............or Sandvik - about the only carbide cutter firm I knew of then

FWIW I remember, compared to HSS (which were pretty limited then anyway - everybody made the same ?? ) they were hideously expensive 3 to 4X HSS ??? something like that, .........but they paid for themselves hand over fist on a cast iron job I was running, ......the same went for the carbide drills I bought at the same time.

I know they were run in Tom Senior M1 mill http://www.lathes.co.uk/senior/index.html with a top speed of <> 1600 rpm, and ''ate the job'' compared to HSS.

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