Thread: Starting up a small shop, turret lathe questions.

I am about to buy a turret lathe here in Dallas. I need it to be able to do 1 5/8" diameter. Basically, I need input on what to look for in a lathe? I am looking at a ~$5K budget, but could spend more if the lathe was worth it. I have been scowering ebay and craigslist, but the options are limited locally. Should I expand my horizons and be willing to travel? Are there equipment resellers here in Texas that I haven't seen?

Also, I talked to an electrician about phase converters (I will be doing this in my home garage), and he said that not all phase converters are the same. Is there anything I need to be looking for in a good phase converter?

Where do you buy tooling? Again, ebay has been where I have been looking. Things like floating tap and die holders. I know a lot will have to depend on what lathe I get, but good sources for those would be great.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I made prototypes on a pretty small lathe, and this is a whole different ballgame.

That's a Warner & Swasey #4 size. A M4640 would be the newest version. 2" bar capacity with an 1800 RPM spindle and 15 hp motor.
Google "Warner & Swasey M4640 and you'll find a bunch for sale. Depending on location and condition, about $10K. Stripped without tooling they weigh in about about 4 ton.

Find a lathe and see what tooling comes with it. Then, you can go to Small Tools and look for what you need.

Here's a machine that Gahr has
Gahr Machine Company. -

Small Tools New and Used Tooling Of All Kinds
JR

Its predecessor was the M-2240 with the same speeds, probably not as heavy or valuable.

An easy thing to do is get (used books online maybe) the book TOOLS by W&S - you can learn was was made for them in the way of factory tooling. In good shape, this will amount to more than the machine.

A Wade 98 with it's 22J collet will do up to 2-1/4" round bar:

Page Title

QB

I have a W&S #3 and it has been a great machine. I use it everyday, mostly as a lathe not so much as a production machine. Are you going to make your own products? Competing with cnc machines for work will be brutal, job shops will do work so low it is nuts.

Thanks guys for the guidance. I am making machined aluminum writing pens and bases that go with them (hence the need for 1.5" capability). I have already sold ~900, and I don't think my budget will allow for any CNC that is worthwhile. Not to mention my CNC experience is extremely limited.

johnoder - which of these is the right book, or are they the same thing?

Amazon.com: Turret Lathe Tools The Warner & Swasey Company, Cleveland: Books

or

Amazon.com: WARNER & SWASEY TOOLS CATALOG NO. 59C (1963): Warner & Swasey Co.: Books

Is Small Tools the place to go for these tools? It seems pretty comprehensive compared to the hit and miss on ebay.

I was looking at a Hitachi Seiki (that got sold), but it seems like Warner and Swasey is the way to go.

Now on to the power situation, it seems like a VFD would be the best option, but I am wondering what kind of amperage I will need? I could do with either a W&S #3 (I can deal with 1.5") or #4. I realize the power capabilities on these can be different. From what it looks like the motors for these two machines can range between 3.75-15hp. I am going to be limited to 220V single phase run through a VFD, so do I need to avoid the more powerful machines? What kind of amperage requirements will I need to prepare for?

Is there a big difference between the models? I need to stay closer to $5K, but I can go up (to $6-8K) if need be. I will only be doing aluminum. Is there anything glaringly wrong with this machine?

WARNER SWASEY #3 TURRET LATHE "WILL SHIP" | eBay

Again, thanks for the input.

900 parts sold and no way to make them yet? Ballsy!

You'll want a rotary phase converter for a heavy machine and you'll want a lot of HP to crank these out efficiently. Buy a converter double the HP of the spindle motor on the machine you buy. 15HP spindle= 30HP converter.

Originally Posted by Garwood

900 parts sold and no way to make them yet? Ballsy!

Not much of a risk when one can get them made for smaller money that wot's wanted to amortize even a cheaply-bought lathe. Let alone labour per-each even at minimum wage on a manual turret lathe .

DIY on this sort of item has to be 'coz one WANTS to, not 'coz it makes any economic sense.

Bill

Pretty much. I found a guy that was willing to let me use his lathe to make prototypes. I enjoyed it enough, and have wanted to make a career out of making things. I realize the disadvantage I am at, but this project has netted enough interest in a short amount of time I am willing to jump through hoops to get it into production myself. If need be it could be subbed out to a job shop, but I have time to make these, and certainly the willingness to get through it.

Originally Posted by eimim

Pretty much. I found a guy that was willing to let me use his lathe to make prototypes. I enjoyed it enough, and have wanted to make a career out of making things. I realize the disadvantage I am at, but this project has netted enough interest in a short amount of time I am willing to jump through hoops to get it into production myself. If need be it could be subbed out to a job shop, but I have time to make these, and certainly the willingness to get through it.

Start looking for the follow-on product, already. The guy who founded Haverhills and whole succession of other profitable mail-order enterprises wrote a book on how it all works. From that, I'd say you might already have sold 900 of the entire market for .... could be 90,000 .. or 1,000.

But not 9 million. Not for a commodity item that will be knocked-off in a New York Minute by established bigger volume predators once it hits their radar .. and if has an attractive differentiator at all.

At some point, reasonably accurate market research needs to become both cheap and routine, ELSE your advertising costs eventually match and eat declining total revenue on ANY product ...and you have either already shifted to Plans B, C ,and sputniks ... ELSE go hungry.

Bill

That pictured #3 doesn't look too bad, and it's probably what you're looking for (if you can live with 1 1/2" capacity, otherwise you need a #4)........... but I think it's way overpriced.
You should be able to find a decent quality #3 for around $1200 or less. It shouldn't be that hard to find either, since they made millions of these and they haven't all been scrapped....yet.


Frank

which of these is the right book, or are they the same thing?

The one with the 1963 date looks like mine.

On edit.....

The Warners have two speed motors - if you want to go faster than about 700 on the M1200 you have to use the high speed which is the more amps. Two speed motors are rarely dual voltage - you may have to accomodate 440 only.

Tell about part contours. If not just straight turning the turret lathe will be a poor choice.

Originally Posted by rockfish

That pictured #3 doesn't look too bad, and it's probably what you're looking for (if you can live with 1 1/2" capacity, otherwise you need a #4)........... but I think it's way overpriced.
You should be able to find a decent quality #3 for around $1200 or less. It shouldn't be that hard to find either, since they made millions of these and they haven't all been scrapped....yet.


Frank

Given that cut-off cold-saws are available, I'd not consider those pen bases to HAVE to be made from continuous lengths of bar stock. A MUCH smaller turret lathe would be happy enough to work with pre-cut slugs. It is only about a shift or three's turning work for the whole 900 anyway.

Now if 900 an HOUR is wanted, then a bar-chucker or screw machine can still compete with CNC. But whereas Gisholt, Warner & Swasey et al CAN also serve as a general-purpose lathe, those cannot easily do so, thus even a 'free' one becomes a rather cumbersome space-eater between appropriate jobs.

Bill

Originally Posted by eimim

Is Small Tools the place to go for these tools? It seems pretty comprehensive compared to the hit and miss on ebay.

I was looking at a Hitachi Seiki (that got sold), but it seems like Warner and Swasey is the way to go.

Now on to the power situation, it seems like a VFD would be the best option, but I am wondering what kind of amperage I will need?

Is there a big difference between the models? I need to stay closer to $5K, but I can go up (to $6-8K) if need be. I will only be doing aluminum. Is there anything glaringly wrong with this machine?

You can still use Ebone, but Small Tools has most everything that you'll need and they're very knowledgable on turret operations.

There are more W&S out there than anything else. You need to remember with a turret lathe, a "new" one is circa 1980. Parts and tooling for W&S are fairly easy to come by.

A VFD doesn't work very good with a 2 speed motor unless you leave in the same range all of the time. You need to size by the HP.

The later models have more spindle speed. You'll need that on aluminum parts.

After hearing what you're making, it's too bad you budget isn't a little higher. I'd be looking at a Haas TL-1 if it was me making parts. 2K RPM spindle, 1.75 bar capacity, conversational controls, and simple enough to run that almost anybody with machine tool experience can run. Tooling is a lot cheaper than a turret!. But, you'd better have $12-15K in your pocket for a used one.
JR

Originally Posted by eimim

I have already sold ~900

Eimim,

On reflection .... if you have managed to conceive and sell ~900 pens and bases in a crowded commodity market, you have a skill that few here have - clever and inventive problem-solvers though we many may be...

'More better' you turn production - and which machine tools and methodology is to be used for it - over to one or several rather hungry machine shops, whilst developing... and SELLING .. your present product .. and the NEXT product.

Those skills we are less adept at.

Minute you get yer head down over a machine tool for hours on-end, no one else is processing orders, answering the phone, let alone looking after the R&D, improving supply QC and economics.... innovating .....and selling.

Put that part first, then do only the prototyping for hands-on 'fun' with the profits. Any sound general-purpose lathe, plus maybe a small mill, will stand you that portion better than a turret lathe.

Businesses are built by working into your greatest and most-nearly-unique strengths. Not by competing - perhaps poorly - with more readily available skillsets for-hire 'bout anywhere.

Bill

BOTOH you have the time, keeping the machining money in your pocket, rather than paying it out to a subby, makes more sense.

THIS needs saying again and again......

Eimim,

On reflection .... if you have managed to conceive and sell ~900 pens and bases in a crowded commodity market, you have a skill that few here have - clever and inventive problem-solvers though we many may be...

'More better' you turn production - and which machine tools and methodology is to be used for it - over to one or several rather hungry machine shops, whilst developing... and SELLING .. your present product .. and the NEXT product.

Those skills we are less adept at.

Minute you get yer head down over a machine tool for hours on-end, no one else is processing orders, answering the phone, let alone looking after the R&D, improving supply QC and economics.... innovating .....and selling.

Put that part first, then do only the prototyping for hands-on 'fun' with the profits. Any sound general-purpose lathe, plus maybe a small mill, will stand you that portion better than a turret lathe.

Businesses are built by working into your greatest and most-nearly-unique strengths. Not by competing - perhaps poorly - with more readily available skillsets for-hire 'bout anywhere.

Bill

Send the work to Frank (Rockfish)...because...
.... he has the machinery and the skills NOW.....
.... he's got employees ready to git on the job NOW
.... he can deliver product to you before you even figger out what machine you want, and how your going to set it up and power it...then you have to learn how to use it.... all of that is WASTED TIME and $$

let Frank make the parts, you assemble , pack and ship... and CREATE and SELL...THATs where the $$$ is.

Good luck

The benefit to subbing it out, you describe exactly what you want on the drawing, and if the part does not meet spec, the subber pays to rerun the job including material costs.

Originally Posted by Limy Sami

BOTOH you have the time, keeping the machining money in your pocket, rather than paying it out to a subby, makes more sense.

Lao Tzu (allegedly) said that: 'The journey of a thousand li starts with the first step' or words to that effect.

Hacker added: "..and ends with the LAST step. Even if it is the same step."

Divert to acquiring and learning turret-lathe ops from a cold-start, and the FIRST 900 pens now on order may not all ship before some - pehaps MOST - orders are cancelled. Meanwhile who is selling the NEXT 900?

Surely not the contract machinist whose efforts one tried to duplicate?

Nor the machinery dealer who sold the turret lathe, nor those who figured out how to power it up. They all have other priorities.

Bill

First, the pens have been sold. There is no canceling the orders (I know it is strange, but true), and I have until the end of July to send them out. I also sold them with people knowing I would be making them myself. So I am committed to doing it this way. For the next project I might just get into doing the prototyping and shop it around.

johnoder - I ordered the book, can't wait to get it. The parts don't have any contour. Simplicity was key in design. A turret lathe will be great.