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Is a stone or file better for face of arbor flange?

pecosbill

Plastic
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
This is for a 16" table saw with a 1" arbor.

The face of the arbor flange has about 0.008" runout. The arbor itself has about 0.002" runout, but it doesn't increase as you measure farther out from the flange, all the way to the threads. Seems like a consistent 0.002" regardless of where you measure. So I am hoping that the arbor is not bent, and the flange is just not perfectly seated or not perfectly made. ???

I tried to use a puller on the flange to remove it for cleaning and inspection, but it wouldn't budge. Because this is a direct drive saw I hesitate to use heat which could transfer into the motor parts.

So what I would like to do, is remove the runout from the flange in place, by running the motor and using a file or stone across the face of the flange. I'm not sure whether the stone or file would work better. And is it asking too much expecting to remove 0.008" this way? The motor rpm is 3600.

Thanks for any input.

Flange5.jpg
 
I would think that a handheld stone or file would just follow the runout and at best just take off any burs and high spots.

It looks like the flange is machined as part of the motor shaft but it is hard to tell from the picture. Best practice would be to remove the armature and have it properly machined.
 
If that's a pressed-on flange (seems reasonable), rather than trying to file it flat (tricky and easy to wind up with a shallow cone), perhaps you can come up with some method of prying the "low" side to bring it true to the axis. You'd have to set up a method that didn't risk bending the spindle or damaging the bearings.

A block of steel with a close-fit bore that slips over the spindle, then using a "C" clamp to draw the further away section of the flange towards the block may work, but frequent checking of the changed flange position and
ensuring no bending of the spindle would be needed. Use a spacer at the base to give clearance, and tighten the spindle nut against the block to secure.

Can the entire assembly be removed from the saw? That would allow better shop methods for truing the flange to be tried. What tools/equipment do you have access to?
 
The entire motor could be removed, not too bad. Getting the arbor out of the motor or the flange off of the arbor is a bit of an unknown for me at this time - I'm not sure exactly how it is constructed. This is a vintage saw, company out of business for probably at least 60 years. So good sources of information are very limited aside from forums. I don't have access to the machining equipment that would probably be necessary to do this job correctly. But if that is what is really required and anything less is not likely to work, I will look for a shop to do it.
 
I assumed the flange was pressed on but I cannot be sure. It looks like somebody may have butchered the back side of it at some point in time too - maybe trying to remove it ???
Flange3.jpgFlange2.jpgFlange4.jpg
 
I assumed the flange was pressed on but I cannot be sure. It looks like somebody may have butchered the back side of it at some point in time too - maybe trying to remove it ???
View attachment 218221View attachment 218222View attachment 218224

I'd suggest you START with pulling the motor and having it apart. Maker 60 years GONE, your one should be due for a new set of bearings even if it was the last one they ever shipped. And it probably is not.

That will let you see more as to how the flange is attached.

New bearings may affect that shaft runout. You'll want to take new measurements of both shaft and flange runout before planning the next steps.

Too soon to start with monkey-patching of only the flange runout.

If the battering from the PREVIOUS "bubba" who attacked it is a klew, it may need a more experienced and better-equipped pair of hands on it.
 
Much depends on what tools you have available and how creative you are. Truing the flange while installed on the motor is obviously the most accurate method, but anything short of cutting with a tool will only follow the existing run out.

If you have the necessary tools, a device can be made that holds a nice sharp lathe tool in a stout bar that can be clamped to the table top. The tool is mounted such that the arbor can be raised and the tool shaves the flange flat and true in several light passes as it passes by the cutting tool. The tool depth can be adjusted by tapping lightly with a small hammer.

This may sound sketchy but I have done it and it works. I have also removed a arbor motor from a saw, clamped it to the ways of a lathe, powered up the arbor motor and used the crosslide to machine the flange dead true.

Stuart
 
I trued a clamping face on a sawmill arbor in place. I set up a removable cross slide on the sawmill bed and turned the face with a sharp tool while the tractor engine was running the sawmill. Cured the saw wobble.
 
If you go over to VintageMachinery.org | Welcome you might find they have an exploded parts diagram for that saw in the "publication reprints" area.
If you then go to the related discussion forum at owwm.org, you might find where someone has done this to the same make saw. It'd certainly be a good place to ask this question.
 
I agree with Monarch (hell must have froze over, lol) Have you tested the bearings? Or is it a bronze bushing?
From the pictures it looks like someone has already heated up the inner flange. The outer flange is pitted from years of not cleaning it before clamping on the blades I would guess.

It boils down to what you want to spend? How does it run now? A lot of vibration? I suppose if your using a 10" blade the wobble at the blade out 10" is what .016 or more? It would help knowing he name brand and model of the saw so we could help look for info for you. You can put your indicator on the shaft and flange and lift /push /pull with your hand and see if the motor bearings are loose.

..............
(edit) I just went back and looked at the pictures...the rear flange that looks like it got hot and is all goofed up... Look at what looks like an upside down U and if you look close enough it appears there is a taper pin holding it to the shaft??? Also looks like it may have been chucked up in lathe? small indents on bottom of flange....some Primitive Pete must have fixed it before. ABC of Hand Tools 1 - YouTube
............

If you want to do it correctly you need to remove the motor and if your not mechanical enough to pull the motor apart take it to a electric motor repair shop and have them give you a quote of fixing it. Seeing it's 60 years old, you would be money ahead to have some help. The file and stoning would not work with motor running as they would follow the low spots. You would be screw up something by screwing it up worse IMHO.

Northfield Machine made those types of saws and they are still in business in Northfield MN.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/machines/machines.htm
 
Files are the berries for removing bugs and nicks down to the original flat surface but not that good for filing off .008 of flat high places of a part likely 42-48 RC..Stones work best with oil and for removing a lot need a lot of push pressure that wold be hard to make with that small hub.
Hand holding a stone, file or blade to the running arbor face would take from the high places as well as the low places.
Richard is right to say take it to a motor shop to have the arbor hub removed and perhaps surface ground..likely $70 or more..

Home knocking off the hub whacking with a hammer could damage the bearings so that may not be a good idea.

I could leave it stuck to the arbor, mark the high area with red layout die 1/3 of the high area like a pie cut..Then with a Dremeral remove all the die to take .001/.002.. Then follow with a flat bar and automotive wet paper (or an oil stone) to smooth out, re-indicate and do this again, likely take one hour to get it +- .001 or .002. Yes it would look like a scraped bed way when done but would be flat (likely I could get it .0002 in a few days). I would indicate to a ground flat arbor space that I own and know is dead flat..You would need something like the sane..not just indicating over the grinds..

Drip can drops soak with WD for a week then using using a puller might work bit it could be so rust,age,press fit stuck that would not work to pull it.

I could use my surface grinder slide angle dresser bolted to the table and with a carbide tool bit held run the hub on the arbor to tale with the tool bit. likely could make a wood V block and do that same with holding a die grinder to hand roll the the hub while grinding.
 
I agree with Monarch (hell must have froze over, lol) Have you tested the bearings? Or is it a bronze bushing?

It boils down to what you want to spend? How does it run now? A lot of vibration?
The motor runs fine without noticeable vibration. Not much noise either - other than 3600 rpm motor noise.

I suppose if your using a 10" blade the wobble at the blade out 10" is what .016 or more?
I use a 16" blade and it was every bit of .020 - 030" at opposite ends of the blade.

It would help knowing he name brand and model of the saw so we could help look for info for you.
The saw is a very late model Greenlee 495, no special slide table or anything.

You can put your indicator on the shaft and flange and lift /push /pull with your hand and see if the motor bearings are loose.
Tried this as a quick check, could not get it to move. I should try again just to confirm.

..............
(edit) I just went back and looked at the pictures...the rear flange that looks like it got hot and is all goofed up... Look at what looks like an upside down U and if you look close enough it appears there is a taper pin holding it to the shaft??? Also looks like it may have been chucked up in lathe? small indents on bottom of flange....some Primitive Pete must have fixed it before. ABC of Hand Tools 1 - YouTube

I wondered about pins too. I can't see or feel with a probe though. I probably should just remove the motor so we can really see what is there. Primitive Pete definitely had his way with it.
............

If you want to do it correctly you need to remove the motor and if your not mechanical enough to pull the motor apart take it to a electric motor repair shop and have them give you a quote of fixing it. Seeing it's 60 years old, you would be money ahead to have some help. The file and stoning would not work with motor running as they would follow the low spots. You would be screw up something by screwing it up worse IMHO.
I agree with you and the others who responded. Time to remove the motor. I'll post what I find and ask some more questions I'm sure.
Thanks to everyone so far.

Northfield Machine made those types of saws and they are still in business in Northfield MN.
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/machines/machines.htm
Good idea. Maybe somebody in their customer support or technical would know how the Greenlees were put together.
 
Much depends on what tools you have available and how creative you are. Truing the flange while installed on the motor is obviously the most accurate method, but anything short of cutting with a tool will only follow the existing run out.

If you have the necessary tools, a device can be made that holds a nice sharp lathe tool in a stout bar that can be clamped to the table top. The tool is mounted such that the arbor can be raised and the tool shaves the flange flat and true in several light passes as it passes by the cutting tool. The tool depth can be adjusted by tapping lightly with a small hammer.
This sounds like a good idea, and something I could probably make work. Now I'm leaning toward your second suggestion though, removing the motor, and then depending on what I find, possibly clamp to the lathe - or take it somewhere.

This may sound sketchy but I have done it and it works. I have also removed a arbor motor from a saw, clamped it to the ways of a lathe, powered up the arbor motor and used the crosslide to machine the flange dead true.

Stuart
adding characters
 
If there are no other motor issues, Stuart's method would get you up and running in the least amount of time and effort. Just get a carbide turning tool and cobble up a way of holding it.

If it doesn't work out, then you can disassemble the whole thing, etc, etc,
 
better would be a tool post grinder or dremmel, pencil, die, or even any old angle grinder you have handy. no real tool pressure thus easier to use because you don't need any rigidity at all. set up some sort of piece of crap guide to traverse somewhat straight and spark it out. just go slowly and check often.

in this case a flat bar, a simple angled block to slide along it and a dremmel hose clamped to the block. twist it to increase depth as needed.

flange truing.JPG

pencil air grinders are super easy to attach to things due to their small round shape.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-t-Fo9oqxzs/hqdefault.jpg
 
I agree with Monarch (hell must have froze over, lol)
LOL! Well. Maybe just Hong Kong harbour?

But here yah go.. Table saw. Woodworking. Not a higher-precision metalworking cold saw.

IF EVEN.. it still has enough "goodness" in, for example, a nice, flat, cast-iron top table? And it may not.

I'd want to put a NEW motor - could be a used one that had just not been beat-on - and flange into it.

Simpler and CHEAPER to re-engineer the mount and linkage. And one may not even HAVE to do - than to mess with a motor and flange we can already see is both over-age-in-grade and worse - already badly abused.

Yeah, most any of us with even a very basic lathe COULD fix it.

But if one has no lathe, it may not be worth the time and headache involved messing with this one. Not after Bubba has done such a serious dirty on it, anyway.

JF run it as is?

Eight thou runout, 4 thou average departure off pencil-line in the kerf, ain't the end of the world on anything cellulosic, save perhaps marquetry.

And who uses a 16" table saw for THAT?
 
Okay back in 1990 I was a no money newlywed remodeling our house. I had an Uncle that gave me a Rockwell table saw because of a wobbly blade. Same issue as you have. It was pretty far off from what I can remember. I took the blade off, put a new grinding wheel on my 4" Makita then turned both on, lined up the grinder the best I could and lightly touched the bent arbor plate while keeping the grinder as still as possible. It worked perfectly.
 
My Tannewitz saw had a bit of runout when I got it. They use an arbor that is screwed onto the motor. This is a common design in the larger table saws. It gives you the ability to easily swap out arbors. They offered a special longer arbor for dados.

Anyhow, my saw had quite a bit of runout, but after I replaced the bearings, it was almost perfect.

Had it not been perfect, I would have been tempted to turn the flange off the saw, and then grind the last bits of precision while on the saw. This is easily accomplished because the arbor naturally goes up and down giving you the desired axis of motion. I've seen this done and it does work.

I would definitely not pry on the flange or any other dynamic actions to try to fix it.

Also, most saws with a "bent arbor" don't actually have issues unless you run a dado stack. The blade only touches the arbor at a tiny area very close to the where the arbor emerges, a bend in the arbor might make a blade be off center a bit, but with a trued flange, it is hardly a concern.

Pete
 
Back in the day I sharpened circular saws for a big shop's carpenter shop..and some on the side..
Even with a perfect running arbor saws would run out turning slow as for sharpening, then running up to cutting speed would run better.

To sharpen I would run a side to a nylon finger so it would run true and circle grind the OD to make a circle grind tick in perhaps 60% or more of the blades..the I would back off to just take the circle grind to just sharp..
They ran so good the carpenters would bring new saw blades to sharpen
 
. You can put your indicator on the shaft and flange and lift /push /pull with your hand and see if the motor bearings are loose.


http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/machines/machines.htm

I pushed and pulled pretty hard by hand and could get somewhere between 0.001" - 0.002" movement on the arbor. The indicator tip was between my hand and the bearing. Seems a bit more than what I would expect. Another guy tried too and couldn't get any movement, but I put all my might into it. Because the motor is cantilevered off the face of the motor, indicator base location could have some effect if I am moving the whole motor. I tried to get onto the best representation of the motor housing itself, but there i still some other structure in the stack - albeit pretty sturdy structure.

Is that amount reasonable or does it sound like I need new bearings? This question could make the difference as to whether I pull the motor or not, because I think I could fashion up an acceptable grinder setup that was suggested earlier. But if it needs new bearings, then it makes sense to face the flange on a lathe when the motor is out.
 








 
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