Tool post ideas, limited height over compound.

Demon69 · Jun 25, 2017

Have run into a slight problem with the old DSG, have only got an inch from centre to top of compound so not much room for a respectably sized QCTP. I acquired a Dickson that takes a 3/4 shank but theres not enough room, even with a 1/2 shank tool its just about coming off the adjusters. I really dont want to be cutting chunks out of the compound or the Dickson.
Im thinking of using the clamp that came with the machine and making a block (possibly one piece) to register a 1 inch tool on. The compound could be left on Z for most work, could have various tools to cut left an right / chamfer / groove an parting etc. Changing tools should be pretty much as quick as a QCTP, they should be on centre ish, aligned and repeatable.
The top of the compound only has a hole for the centre bolt and two counter bores for the two front gib bolts, no other features to register four way that might have originally come with the machine.

Something along these lines. The clamp would come down over the lot, possibly with something to push it up and out the way when changing a tool.

Mcgyver · Jun 25, 2017

DSG of course could do no wrong so I'll blame some failing on my part.....but it would make me mental to have that style of compound top. I have to have a QCTP. Fortunately mine is the T slot style.....but a recent project might give you an idea.

I would probably cut the T slot in the top of the compound if its the same basic casting. If the castings are the same, it should work. You run the risk of the casting slightly moving to a new equilibrium, but I know you know how to fix that.

Another idea is pull the compound off and replace it with a block. Below is a photo of a current project. I ended making a bunch of T slots (there is one large one to fit the TP) just because that is the size of cast iron I had and it seemed like a handy thing to do. There are two sets of mounting holes and the block of course can be indexed 180 giving lots of positions along the X axis

The bottom is scraped flat so is perfect mate to the cross slide (which is also scraped as is the rest of the pancake stack). Yesterday I scraped the top - wanted no rocking with the seat of the QCTP. While I have the T slot compound, this block is part of a current pursuit and experiment involving a few more bits and pieces to see just how consistent and accurate I get the thing to turn.

sealark37 · Jun 25, 2017

It appears that a previous owner has installed a custom block on your compound. I would do a bit of research to find the original dimensions and modify it back to original. Regards, Clark

Mcgyver · Jun 25, 2017

sealark37 said:
It appears that a previous owner has installed a custom block on your compound. I would do a bit of research to find the original dimensions and modify it back to original. Regards, Clark

DSG supplied them with a two styles. Mine has the T slot, others had just a threaded hole for a 4 way tool post.....I don't have Demons in front of me, but I'm about 90% that that is factory.

Danny VanVoorn · Jun 25, 2017

Easy fix would be a Hardinge or a Tripan quick change tool post and holders but I feel the size of that lathe deserves larger tooling capacity than that allows.
Dan

Joe Henderson · Jun 25, 2017

If you can find one I would put the old Enco four way tool post on it. They made several sizes for different heights. The base plate is machined to fit the T-slot which you won't need but you can machine it to fit the height you wish. They are indexable and do a good job. You might not be able to use 1" tool in it though.

John Welden · Jun 25, 2017

Remove the compound.

Demon69 · Jun 25, 2017

Cheers gents

Im leaning towards the clamp being original, looks well made, but dunno for sure, plus the man whos a pile of experience with DSGs says hes only seen them come with a 4 way. The only blurb I have on the machine shows one pic of a 4way, the rest show a turret, notice how slight the bottom shelf is. The machine dates from 30s to late 40s I afaik.

A pic of 4way mounted, but the compound is different to mine.

Could go full ROBRENZ kinda like mac an john suggests, maybe, but im not sure i want to give up my compound just yet

Im still liking the idea of one tool tbh. Unclamp - change tool - Reclamp - done. I think it could work well with a bit of consideration :scratchchin:

Limy Sami · Jun 25, 2017

MMMMM? That's a poser Demon, Clog heel toolposts were more or less the STD issue when that DS&G was built, ...and as your picks show the 4 way seems to have a lower compound slide.

Some things to chew over / investigate.

Thought 1 - Have you had the compound off the machine to see if there are any fixings up from the underside? ............if so, a pad could have been fitted to the compound for some reason, and if carefully fitted and dowelled (as befits a DS&G ) the joint line could be well nigh invisible ?

The reason I say that is because in your 1st pic ''I think'' I'm seeing a feint line on the corner nearest, but I am not sure.

Thought 2 - Is the top surface of the compound scraped? .if so why? ...seems an unusual thing to do.

Thought 3 - 1/2'' sq tools should be adequate for that machine, unless you want it for heavy work, ........and a 1/2'' thick base to a 4 way tool post should be quite rigid.

MARK07747 · Jun 25, 2017

You can use a Aloris or Dorian toolpost. Both companies make tool blocks that allow a tool to be held much lower than the standard tool block. Some have a much thinner lower support and some are made to hang slightly below the bottom of the toolpost- this of course would require the post to be close enough to the edge. Then there are always the Swiss Multi-fix toolposts. I put one on a Caseneuve HBX360 that has the same problem as your lathe- a compound rest that is rather high.

traditional-tools · Jun 25, 2017

Surprised nobody mentioned the KDK tool post/holders.

They are a lower profile and offer more visibility. I know some folks here prefer them, CalH comes to mind. Adding image to show tool post. KDK tool posts also use Aloris style holders.

202046d1498421287-tool-post-ideas-limited-height-over-compound-kdk-tool-holder.jpg

Limy Sami · Jun 25, 2017

KDK are no more http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/kdk-tools-closing-215444/

Demon69 · Jun 25, 2017

Limy Sami said:
MMMMM? That's a poser Demon, Clog heel toolposts were more or less the STD issue when that DS&G was built, ...and as your picks show the 4 way seems to have a lower compound slide.

Some things to chew over / investigate.

Thought 1 - Have you had the compound off the machine to see if there are any fixings up from the underside? ............if so, a pad could have been fitted to the compound for some reason, and if carefully fitted and dowelled (as befits a DS&G ) the joint line could be well nigh invisible ?

The reason I say that is because in your 1st pic ''I think'' I'm seeing a feint line on the corner nearest, but I am not sure.

Thought 2 - Is the top surface of the compound scraped? .if so why? ...seems an unusual thing to do.

Thought 3 - 1/2'' sq tools should be adequate for that machine, unless you want it for heavy work, ........and a 1/2'' thick base to a 4 way tool post should be quite rigid.

After doing some looking theres all sorts of ways to mount tools eh

. First pic was what I got for clog heel. The second photo was described as 'A rather prosaic triangular spring-supported toolpost'! Bloody cheek!!

Thought 1 - Haha you could say that

. Theres no pad but you got me thinking though lol.

Thought 2 - Yep, seemed like a good idea at the time

. Is proper acriate now though

Thought 3 - Could go that way, would be nice to have a bit of meat in the bottom of the 4way, but not so keen on a 1/2" tool. Have put some effort in to getting the machine straight and tight, and as they say, when it comes to the size of ya tool, big is good, biggers better

EPAIII · Jun 25, 2017

Looks like a good place for an adaptation of my QCTP design.

It has a "D" shaped post for alignment. I designed it with a flat base because of the slot in my compound. The height adjustment screw would sometimes fall in that slot and not work. So that flat base was necessary. But if you have a flat top on your compound, then that base for the post would not be necessary as the height adjustment screw would always fall on that top of the compound. And you already have a hole for the mounting stud.

Without the flat base of the post, you only need clearance for the bit itself and for the ledge it rests on. One inch should be enough for a 1/2" tool. The tool holders are somewhat larger than the dovetail ones, but they are easy to make as only boring and milling flats and the groves for the tool bits are required.

It is perhaps the fastest quick change holder as no tools are needed for that changeover. A single, quick turning and lifting motion removes one holder and the new one drops down and locks with the opposite motion. You never have to search for that wrench again.

Accuracy when remounting a tool is as good as I can measure, definitely well under a thousandth. You can get the latest version of the plans here:

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/quick-change-tool-post-lathe-52118#post75787

Or if you don't want to pay and will settle for an earlier version:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MachiningTips/files/Lathe%20Accessories/

In either case you would have to modify and up-scale the plans as it was designed for 3/8" tool bits. They should scale easily and if you have any trouble I would be glad to help. You would probably want to step up to a 2" post or so. I would love to see a larger version built.

jims · Jun 26, 2017

Us shop tools now makes KDK blocks that fit Kdk holders. Jimsehr

Demon69 · Jun 27, 2017

EPAIII said:
Looks like a good place for an adaptation of my QCTP design.

It has a "D" shaped post for alignment. I designed it with a flat base because of the slot in my compound. The height adjustment screw would sometimes fall in that slot and not work. So that flat base was necessary. But if you have a flat top on your compound, then that base for the post would not be necessary as the height adjustment screw would always fall on that top of the compound. And you already have a hole for the mounting stud.

Without the flat base of the post, you only need clearance for the bit itself and for the ledge it rests on. One inch should be enough for a 1/2" tool. The tool holders are somewhat larger than the dovetail ones, but they are easy to make as only boring and milling flats and the groves for the tool bits are required.

It is perhaps the fastest quick change holder as no tools are needed for that changeover. A single, quick turning and lifting motion removes one holder and the new one drops down and locks with the opposite motion. You never have to search for that wrench again.

Accuracy when remounting a tool is as good as I can measure, definitely well under a thousandth. You can get the latest version of the plans here:

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/quick-change-tool-post-lathe-52118#post75787

Or if you don't want to pay and will settle for an earlier version:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MachiningTips/files/Lathe%20Accessories/

In either case you would have to modify and up-scale the plans as it was designed for 3/8" tool bits. They should scale easily and if you have any trouble I would be glad to help. You would probably want to step up to a 2" post or so. I would love to see a larger version built.

Thats pretty slick an simple with the flat on the post, could be made to any size to. The only problem for me would still be stuck for height and as its a 'tool holder' id like some meat under the tool as it wouldnt be backed up by the top surface of the compound as a standard 4 way turret holder would. Funny enough I made something similar without the flat, think its based on a waltham or drummond design.

Works well enough but keep on having to align parting blades and tools gets old. Wouldnt be a problem for yours though.
Cheers

Demon69 · Jun 27, 2017

Did a bit more digging around and seemingly cant find DSG providing anything but a 4way post even back int day

, no sign or mention of the clamp thats on mine. I did however find a 13z on ebay a little while back that had some sensible pics of the compound. It has the 4way holder and T slot mount.
I mocked up the tail stock to make sure I can get in everywhere without a pile of tool or ts quill stickout, all good. When you check the two pics side by side the difference in meat can easily be seen. Note the height of the casting near the wheel also.

Have decided to go ahead and make something like in the post 1, pretty sure I can get what I want without molesting the compound, be cake to make to. Might well make a block to replace the compound and swivel at some point so wont be getting rid of the Dickson just yet

HuFlungDung · Jun 27, 2017

I don't mind keeping stuff 'original', if it was well thought out. But if it wasn't, or is old hat, then I'm certainly into modernizing. I'd machine a half inch off the top of that compound and put a multifix on it. Don't bother cutting a T slot across it, just a stud is good.

Demon69 · Jun 27, 2017

HuFlungDung said:
I don't mind keeping stuff 'original', if it was well thought out. But if it wasn't, or is old hat, then I'm certainly into modernizing. I'd machine a half inch off the top of that compound and put a multifix on it. Don't bother cutting a T slot across it, just a stud is good.

Yeah I hear ya and in another situation id probably do the same, but I want to keep things as is as poss on this particular machine. Doesnt mean I wouldnt graft on or make a compound tho, an fit whatever tp, but id like to keep the original stuff by. If you go milling chunks out that compound you can expect things to move on you, which could be a problem or not depending on what you want.

traditional-tools · Jun 27, 2017

Limy Sami said:
KDK are no more http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/kdk-tools-closing-215444/

One can still find them on ebay, and the tool holders are plentiful from a variety of places.

You make a good point I 'spose, I mean who would want a tool post that was manufactured from a company that isn't in business anymore, even though the lathe is not manufactured anymore...? :rolleyes5:

Tool post ideas, limited height over compound.

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