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Tooling Ductile Iron VS Tool steel

Simon&Simon's

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Hi guys,
I use to build all my own tooling from A2 or H13 but now I'm getting into scraping a bit and this question pop out...

when should you use ductile Iron and when harden tool steel? Is there a particuliary situation when the other is preferable... excepte the fact that it's easy to re-machine a tooling that is not heat treated.

Wear resistance should not be a problem too since all the ways of most precision machine are cast iron...
 
Hi guys,
I use to build all my own tooling from A2 or H13 but now I'm getting into scraping a bit and this question pop out...

when should you use ductile Iron and when harden tool steel? Is there a particuliary situation when the other is preferable... excepte the fact that it's easy to re-machine a tooling that is not heat treated.

Wear resistance should not be a problem too since all the ways of most precision machine are cast iron...

? Sort of a when to use brick or tile, and when to use poured concrete type of question.

Ductile iron is for castings - nearly always. Rounds or rectangular bars of it can be machined, later.

Tool steel is very seldom cast. Well... "technically", anyway.

Nearly all "raw" or primary metals are either cast, sintered from powers, or electrolytically produced. Re-melt, rolling, drawing, extruding, forging, and the like modify them, later.

More info as to what you are making, please?

As-in a new compound rest slide or some such to BE scraped, OR a scraping tool to do the scraping of it WITH. Carbide recommended in the second case, BTW, and grey cast iron might be the better choice for the first.
 
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The question is more... when I do tooling for myself like a square, en angle block, a dresser etc... most of the time, I take a piece of tool steel, machine, heat treat to 60rc and grind to geometry and dimension. I never realy thought about using cast iron or ductile iron, but I know that a lot of tooling is made with it (level, angle and surface plate, set-up block...)

Just want to know if there a specific function for why choosing one over the other.
 
The question is more... when I do tooling for myself like a square, en angle block, a dresser etc... most of the time, I take a piece of tool steel, machine, heat treat to 60rc and grind to geometry and dimension. I never realy thought about using cast iron or ductile iron, but I know that a lot of tooling is made with it (level, angle and surface plate, set-up block...)

Just want to know if there a specific fonction for why choosing one over the other.

As so. Iron - grey more than ductile - is used for enduring stability in thick sections at reasonable cost to produce. machine tool 'chassis' and components, levels, straight-edges among the better examples. A vise is simply far less costly, cast, than milled from the solid, could be either

Measuring tools and the like with THIN sections? Steel. CI breaks too easily.

More detailed examples are all around you if you assess the functionality and risk they were meant to deliver to.
 
i would like to see a comparison of tool steels and (ductile) irons hardened to 60 hrc in terms of impact resistance/elongation etc.
 
You need to go buy a book about tool steels. Cast iron cannot be hardened. It can be case hardened to a thin depth,but is still not a good substitute for tool steel.

Get books and study up. You seem to be at ground zero in understanding steels. It is a problem,however,that I have never seen a book about tool steels that also discussed cast iron.

To help you,here are some facts about cast iron and its uses:

1.Cast iron is brittle and totally unsuitable for cutting tools. It is fairly soft; You can whack it with a hammer and make a decent size dent in it.

2.Cast iron is used to make machinery frames out of. It is used because it is less expensive than trying to make a frame out of steel. It dampens vibrations pretty effectively.

3. Cast iron is rather "self lubricating" because of its high graphite content. This does not mean you should run your machine DRY. But,cast iron does resist wearing out better than most steels. An example is this- Oliver,a maker of woodworking machinery,and a well respected maker indeed,got the brilliant idea of trying to make the tables of its jointers out of steel. Possibly they thought fabricating the tables of steel might be cheaper than casting them. Or,maybe they thought steel would out wear cast iron. I have no idea. But,they ought to have sent their engineer(s) back to SCHOOL. The steel tables very soon got grooves worn into them when planing plywood on its edges. I don't know what they did about that,but they should have replaced those jointers,or fitted new CASR IRON tables to them. No doubt they had a bunch of PISSED OFF customers on their hands!!

4. Malleable iron (also called ductile iron) is cast iron that has been baked at about a red heat in a furnace for hours,to reduce the very high carbon content,making the formerly cast iron bendable,ot less likely to break if dropped on a hard floor. Premium wood planes these days are about all made of malleable iron. Their blades,however,are made of TOOL STEEL.

5.Cast iron
,though it has been used more than any other metal for making the frames of all kinds of machine tools,is a difficult metal to machine. The high carbon content will very soon dull HSS cutting tools. Very slow feeds and speeds must be used when machining it. No cutting oils are used when machining it. It is a filthy metal to cut,leaving everything near the cutting action filthy black. (I may have made errors with this,please feel free to correct me). I never machine much cast iron myself.

6. Cast iron used on high wearing surfaces,such as lathe beds,may be INDUCTION HARDENED,either by electrical means,or flame. Then,the hardened surfaces will(or can) be so hard you cannot file them. Most modern machinery has induction hardened beds.Even Chinese lathes.Most are "file hard",but my Romanian made "Pro Master" lathe from MSC was able to be filed a little,being softer at 55 RC. Harder than a good steel spring. I wish it had been made harder,though.But that was just a SMALL problem compared with the HOST of trouble with that lathe!!!!

This is about all I care to write about right now,and I'm sure some of my listings have errors. So,feel free to make polite corrections,or be total jack asses,and hoot my errors to the moon,like some of you guys usually do to ANYONE who makes an error!!!:):):)
 
i would like to see a comparison of tool steels and (ductile) irons hardened to 60 hrc in terms of impact resistance/elongation etc.

I have more than a few books on all that. Doubt anyone would chose to make a 24" scale or a cold-chisel out of cast iron, but y'know - at one time they had to do and rated it better than wood or stone if not yet as good as Bronze, so..

.. one could reinvent that long, long march up from ancient times - the hard way - rather than read-up.

:)
 
i machine a lot of ductile iron castings and most are not hardened. the main advantage with ductile iron is it bends much more without cracking or breaking
.
at a foundry you take scrap metal 1" or thinner put on dirt floor and whack it with a sledge hammer hard and fast. cast iron will break into smaller pieces. ductile iron usually hammer will just bounce off and you got to watch hammer does not hit you when it bounces back.
 
rather than read-up.

A suggested read is The Principles Of Iron Founding - written by a hairy eared molder and foundry boss, Richard Moldenke, that later educated himself to the doctoral level and was secretary of AFS for 14 years. Has nothing to do with ductile since it came later, but will open your eyes on the whys of cast iron. Richard claimed to to have personally poured 250,000 tons of iron castings, which is a whale of a lot of being around a cupola.

On Edit - scanned

The principles of iron founding : Moldenke, Richard, 1864-193 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Then...if you wanted to know where the pig came from that Richard carefully mixed and melted - Principles, Operation and Products of the Blast Furnace and Blast Furnace Construction in America - by J. E. Johnson, Jr. - ON EDIT - just read that J.E. was struck and killed by auto while walking to train station from his home in Scarsdale NY but two years after these books are dated - like in 1919

Then... if you wanted to know about the fuel for both - George Harvey's Henry Clay Frick The Man

Then if you wanted to bone up on the original tool steel - K. C. Barraclough's two volumes on Steel Making Before Bessemer
 
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A suggested read is Principles Of Iron Founding - written by a hairy eared molder and foundry boss, Richard Moldenke, that later educated himself to the doctoral level and was secretary of AFS for 14 years. Has nothing to do with ductile since it came later, but will open your eyes on the whys of cast iron. Richard claimed to to have personally poured 250,000 tons of iron castings, which is a whale of a lot of being around a cupola.

10 tons each day adds up quick like over 3000 tons each year and he could have been pouring 100 tons each day so 30,000 tons a year
 
when saying cast iron is brittle and weak, dont forget there is stuff like 60-40-18 or 135-100-8 that is not far away from steels.

edit: ultimate-yield-elongation, ductile irons.
 
i would like to see a comparison of tool steels and (ductile) irons hardened to 60 hrc in terms of impact resistance/elongation etc.

Not a fair fight, The ni-hard cast irons get pretty good at impact+heat (rolling mills) but don't compare to the "H" tools steels. The latter can't get to 60 BTW & be usefull, never seen Ni-hard that high either.

Hard cast is good for hard & slippery (free graphite expelled in transformation) while tools steels are good for whatever they're tuned for. Timken can get you O-1 with graphite if you want a slippery punch though...

The elongation of either at high strength levels is so near nil it's not worth considering.
 
I think you may want to look at costs. Machining a 6" x 6" 90° angle plate? Check out the cost of an A6 billet that is 6" x 6" x 6" "billet". Your decision will be made.

Seriously, if you aren't making cutting tools or tools to form steel and this is a hobby - use mild steel or CI.

If you aren't willing to heat treat, use mild steel or CI.

If you are making reference surfaces for scraping (straight-edges, dove-tail gages), or larger references surfaces (like the angle plate, above) , use aged CI.

If you really have a hard-on for tool steel (so you can claim "all my tooling is through-hardened D2"), I'd recommend you find a copy of Carpenter's booklet on the "Matched Tool Steel Matrix" to orient you as to which tool steel to use.

There are applications where specific steels are necessary or highly optimal. For most apps, this optimality is not necessary. As an allegory, consider guitars. Guitarists wax poetical and have wet-dreams about the right Brazilian Rosewood, or Honduras Mahogany or Spruce. A prominent guitar industry leader, Bob Taylor, understood that passion but it kind of pissed him off. I think that he was also put off by other firms implying that his guitars were good because of the wood, and not the craftsmanship. So he went to the loading dock of his Guitar company and got a pallet. And he took the pallet apart and made a guitar out of it. And it sounded (and still sounds) great. So don't go off the deep end in trying to find that perfect tool steel stock when the search will delay what you want to get done, and cost more, and not give you any advantage over mild steel or CI.

Taylor-Shop-Pallet-Guitar-Top.jpg
 
Not a fair fight, The ni-hard cast irons get pretty good at impact+heat (rolling mills) but don't compare to the "H" tools steels. The latter can't get to 60 BTW & be usefull, never seen Ni-hard that high either.

Hard cast is good for hard & slippery (free graphite expelled in transformation) while tools steels are good for whatever they're tuned for. Timken can get you O-1 with graphite if you want a slippery punch though...

The elongation of either at high strength levels is so near nil it's not worth considering.

sure, so how about some charpy values of 60 hrc stuff? or izod. there are others.
 
sure, so how about some charpy values of 60 hrc stuff? or izod. there are others.

There is no chart I know of that does that, you can dig around (generic) in the ASM properties & selection volume for night time reading. But without some purpose in mind what’s the point?

It’ll take two posts, but I’ll quote myself. The cast iron first, tool steel second.

You can make dies from quenched & drawn ductile.

Pic1. Meehanite was giving the tool steel makers some heartburn with dies way back with a big cost advantage where subset properties worked. The TS guys fight back in the next post.
Pic2. “HTN” similar to Grade 5 ADI is likely what they would have done it with, note they show no impact rating with Rc’s in the 50’s
Pic3. More common flaked graphite types here in the strength conditions from the mill. None of these as hard as you want but the GA & GM can be brine quenched for really good wear buttons (like a steady rest). When you do that they can also act like glass.
Pic4. Effect of quench & draw temp on type GA iron, the hardness and tensile are valid as quenched, the tensile and charpy are valid as drawn. You really wouldn’t find a lot of uses if not drawn over 500°F.
Pic5. Crucible H13 tool steel, which tempered @ 975°F is 54Rc and Charpy V notches 10ft/lbs.

More in the next post,
Matt
 

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2of2 posts on this reply,

Now for a few choice tool steels, for cold work the compressive strength is usually boss. Also thinking Charpy & Izod directly relate can get you confused but you can see the difference in toughness when THAT particular material is manipulated by tempering.

Pic1. Timken Graph-Mo (O6), You don’t temper this shit over 500°F but if you wanted to work hardness vs quenched cast iron @ 550ish Bhn you go 700°F & find an Izod impact of 41 ft/lbs & 405Kpsi UTS.
Pic2. Timkin Graph-Air (A10), This is really slippery cold work TS with nuts strength. Tempering @ 800°F for 54-55Rc gets you 85 ft/lbs & 398Kpsi UTS.
Pic3. Crucible Versasteel (no AISI designation – but it’s whup azz), This TS doesn’t know exactly what it is, but tuned from 58-65Rc it may replace HSS (price), cold work A’s & D’s or the O’s (price or performance).
Pic4. Versasteel2 recipes for tensile & then compares compressive strengths & hardness vs A2, D2.
Pic5. Versasteel3 recipes for impact & compares with A2,D2,M1 & M2. Also compares wear resistance with A2 & M2.

I’m tired now,
Matt
 

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Ductile Iron verses Tool Steel

Hi guys,
I use to build all my own tooling from A2 or H13 but now I'm getting into scraping a bit and this question pop out...

when should you use ductile Iron and when harden tool steel? Is there a particuliary situation when the other is preferable... excepte the fact that it's easy to re-machine a tooling that is not heat treated.

Wear resistance should not be a problem too since all the ways of most precision machine are cast iron...

Cast Iron has about 20 percent carbon and a tensile strength of about 20K lbs. tensile strength. Whereas CRS has about .20 percent carbon and a tensile strength of 50K lbs. Your suggesting using ductile iron to make scrapping tool. There is no comparison between using ductile iron (cast iron) and tool steel for cutting tools. Cast iron is a great material for sliding machine parts and holds a special place in machine design. Whereas tool steels is the right material for there specific design requirement and holds a special place in the design of tooling. Use the correct material to meet the design requirement intended to obtain the desired results.

Roger 05/10/2017
 
Cast or steel^^?? If it's 1.6% or more carbon → it’s cast iron, anything iron based with less carbon → steel. I’ve never seen any CI with up to 20% carbon (or anything near that much)...

Dura-Bar (Wells Mfg. Co.) makes some pretty good ‘chit. They don’t use the meehanite trademark & license because they don’t need to. The chemistry to make is much the same as the licensed meehanite foundries (possibly somewhat tighter). They narrowed down to just continuous casting bars or tubes & doing it very well. Similar has been done with bars in steel rod & wire mills for making blooms up to 30’ long in the 4-6” section range way-way back.

The second attachment in post# 16 was a scan of durabar HTN, otherwise known by industry as “ADI” nodular cast iron. They offer 5 grades of ADI (prolly stock it), whereas meehanite foundries designate between 3 ADI “K”types.

Prolly the last really new thing (other than just getting better at the same game) was CGI cast irons. Patented about the same time as the nodulars. They sit between the 2 and can be made to go one way or the other with a weight/strength or casting/damping better. It took Cat till the 90’s to really figure it out at the mapleton foundry (after trying for a long time)...

I’ll attach the Durabar concept for continuous cast (looks easy to do, for them that is), durabar flake type cast iron (grey cast) and their Ni-resist with the 3 stock meehanite ADI nodular type last attached.

Good luck,
Matt
 

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