Thread: Tube Swaging?

Looking at a part to quote that is 2" DOM about 9" long.

Each end is to be swaged in on a strait taper (conical) to prox 1.750 OD.

The taper is to only be prox 3/4" long.

Another feature of interest is that there is to be a 1/2" through hole leaving about 3/8" meat from the edge of the hole to the start of the taper. I would like to put the holes in before the swage.

Not much experience with this type of swaging (and a long time ago at that) but it would seem that I would want a mandrel comming in from the other end to help define the break point eh? That dog don't hunt too well with both end being hit.

???

Now if I didn't need a mandrel - then that is a horse of a completely differ'nt colour!

Several thousand pcs.


Not sure if this is something that I would have to fixture up and run in-house, or is this something that someone with the right equipment can stomp out effortlessly?


Werds of wisdom (experience) on this?


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

You don't say the wall thickness, that makes a big difference. I know enough to be dangerous on swaging but I think you'd be ahead to call some tube fab places. One that always shot straight answers with very good technical expertise is Tools For Bending in Colorado. Been years since I worked with them but they build their own endfinish machines. They may have a local to you customer to recomend for a quote.
I'd think about drilling the hole afterwards, but it may not be an issue to have it there.

I make a part like this in red brass.

Only hit on one end

Dude that did it before me did it in a turret lathe with rollers.

I never could get it to work so built a die out of 4140 and pressed them

Had to use 2 pieces for the die one pipe and one funnel still running (had to use the pipe to keep from bulging.

If you have a collet that will hold and enough lathe I would try that.

Takes a lot of pressure so will prolly distort the hole.

Also when you swage in a die you lose .250 per end

Need lube to swage I use coolant

The dude that was rolling also had an induction heater

I am ready arranging this produce. For detailed offer, please send drawing or (sketch) and type of material. Regards Libor

In a former life, I actually worked for these guys:

Custom Steel Tube & Bar Cutting and Fabrication Services - Holland, Ohio

I know they have swaging machines, or at least did. And they're close to you.

I think you will need to develop the length if it is critical, swaging is violent and distorts lengths allot. Plan on doing the hole afterwards.

Good luck.

Sorry - .109 wall.

I thought that I had that in there the first time.

My bad!


Yes - Holland is a hop/skip/jump



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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

I'm just throwing this out, as far as where I'd start on a path of development.

I would set this up in a heavy lathe, slow turning.

I would build a setup with some 1-1/2" cam rollers (tough needle bearings, huge load capacity). Might be able to use something like a 6209 bearing if it would fit inside. Bottom one would be for support of the tube ID where the bend is to start. Top one would be on some sort of a roller-way (could also make that up with cam rollers too). Use porta-power cylinder and hand pump to bring the top roller down to start flowing the material.

Might need to run this bottom-up so you don't lift the cross-slide off the lathe, instead put the pressure down.

Most likely someone has already invented this wheel. However, the price of entry may be out of the price point and quantity of the finished assembly.

Just thinking out loud
How about making it out of 1.750 OD. tubing and hydroform it
The die would be easy to make

peter from holland

Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt

I'm just throwing this out, as far as where I'd start on a path of development.

I would set this up in a heavy lathe, slow turning.

I would build a setup with some 1-1/2" cam rollers (tough needle bearings, huge load capacity). Might be able to use something like a 6209 bearing if it would fit inside. Bottom one would be for support of the tube ID where the bend is to start. Top one would be on some sort of a roller-way (could also make that up with cam rollers too). Use porta-power cylinder and hand pump to bring the top roller down to start flowing the material.

Might need to run this bottom-up so you don't lift the cross-slide off the lathe, instead put the pressure down.

Most likely someone has already invented this wheel. However, the price of entry may be out of the price point and quantity of the finished assembly.

Even if you could get this to work, several thousand pcs would destroy any manual lathe out there. The forces required are substantial. A swaging machine that could handle this job is going to be about three to four feet in diameter. I just don't see a manual lathe handling it.

http://www.jarosmetaltubes.com/gell/...g%20system.jpg

Sorry.

Originally Posted by smalltime

Even if you could get this to work, several thousand pcs would destroy any manual lathe out there.

I would say I could take a 12" crescent wrench and cold bend the tube wall down to the required taper in one area (as wide as the wrench jaws) That's basically the forces the cam rollers are undertaking as they bend/flow metal along that line of contact. I don't think that would destroy a lathe larger than a South Bend.

Keep in mind roller-flowing the metal is vastly different than hydraulically stuffing the whole thing into a tapered die. I've done a different process in the lathe, rolling hose beads and all that took was a vise grip with rollers welded to axles attached to the jaws. I used a 10EE for that with the tool mounted on an AXA post and none of the tooling nor the lathe was under duress as far as I could tell. The vise grip allows a controlled application of force but has a "work stop" as the rolling progresses -can feel it happening thru the handles. Thinner wall tubing but I would absolutely try Ox's project. Ideally would use something like a Monarch 61 series but I don't own that one any more.

If you want to make 250k pieces a year to supply a car assembly plant I would recommend the pro equipment. Sort of Mr. Ox's call as to whether to monkey around with development or invest in the pro quality equipment.

I've done a different process in the lathe, rolling hose beads and all that took was a vise grip with rollers welded to axles attached to the jaws.

I'd love to see that, have any photos? What was the tubing, and how big were the rollers in relation to the tubing?

I was considering the possibility of rolling on the lathe.

Just not sure if that would bend back beyond my contact point or not?
(would I be able to have a semi definate start to the taper?)

Also - wondering if that cross hole being there ahead of time would be an issue?
I bet it would...



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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

I was wondering if you could pinch form it in three rollers?? Let's see...lube up a mandrel (slug) to put in the end to support the drive in the chuck (jaws like pie jaws carbarized (no lube on them)) lube the forming end. Roll it in the pinch forming rollers...press the mandrel out in a little fixture in a press if needed.

Steve

Originally Posted by Mud

I'd love to see that, have any photos? What was the tubing, and how big were the rollers in relation to the tubing?

[IMG]http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/dually_project_03.JPG[/IMG]

So my photo is of copper tubing, i have successfully done I think .060 wall steel also. The forces aren't terrible because the cold working is done gradually. For instance, you roll a bit, squeezing the handles a little tighter as you go. In this one the rollers travel in an arc, so a quick tool. I don't take credit for the tool, it was given to me by a former co worker who retired but the pic is in my own shop.

I do think it will take 3 rollers after thinking about this more. One to support the ID at the bending point, and two to support the taper. It may also work out better to have the rollers with appropriate matching taper (axles parallel to tube ID) rather than the angled cam rollers I suggested earlier.

Muffler pipe expander on steroids.

But seriously, outside die over pipe, inside expander to match. You won't defeat hydraulic pressure. You might crack the pipe though. Through holes prior to form will be easier. Heat might help.

Just going from what I've seen.

Ben

On edit, this is starting with .175 pipe, you figure what wall will give you .109 after stretch, Or contact pirco(post#4) and get the free shipping quote. Maybe with the global market you'll make out.

I understood that you were needing to taper to a smaller diameter. Are you needing to flare the tube to a larger diameter?

Originally Posted by matt_isserstedt

I've done a different process in the lathe, rolling hose beads and all that took was a vise grip with rollers welded to axles attached to the jaws. I used a 10EE for that with the tool mounted on an AXA post and none of the tooling nor the lathe was under duress as far as I could tell. The vise grip allows a controlled application of force but has a "work stop" as the rolling progresses -can feel it happening thru the handles. Thinner wall tubing but I would absolutely try Ox's project.

Means nothing now you tell us it was copper tube you were forming.

Means nothing now you tell us it was copper tube you were forming.

i have successfully done I think .060 wall steel also.

I don't recall if it was .049 or .060 wall, I think .060, but I am not sure as the sands of time has washed that data away, I rolled a bead for a tractor cooling system repair. I did not take pictures.

I'm just throwing this out, as far as where I'd start on a path of development.

Note that I'm not saying because I can roll radiator hose beads with a fairly weak cobbled up tool that Mr. Ox can roll his way to easy fortune, just that it doesn't put enough force into the lathe to destroy it if your roller tooling is the structure that absorbs the forces.

DOM tubing has already undergone some pretty serious cold working during its manufacture, enough so to raise its tensile and yield points by something on the order of 50% as compared to the undrawn tube. The difference in bending DOM vs the same dia/wall of ERW tube is real significant. Just wondering if the tube may have to be annealled at the ends prior to forming.

Having made quite a few dies in the past for squashing SS pipe into various fitting configurations, my first shot would be to make a die with a cone shaped bore out of something hardenable, and push it head on against the tube end in a press with the tube clamped to prevent it moving. It just might work, and if so it'd be simple enough to build a fixture that would push dies onto both ends at the same time.

You wouldn't likely believe it unless you watched it done, but you can push a piece of pipe into a concentric reducer die which has an ogee curve as its interior contour, and the pipe will shrink down in the first curve, and then follow the reverse curve out into the smaller dia straight section, all cold. To look at it, you'd swear it'd just keep on collapsing and end up in a cone shaped point, but it doesn't. And I'm talking about starting with a 6" pipe and reducing it to the dimensions of 4" pipe in a run of about 4 inches. OTOH, other things that seem far simpler to do turn out to be darn near impossible without getting real complicated, so you never know what will or won't work until you either try it or have a big bank of experience in your back pocket.

Thanks guys, I think this is a job better suited for a tube fab shop, and not a machine shop.....

I think I'm gunna pass on it....


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!