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What the difference between a face mill and fly cutter?

Apples

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Location
Toowoomba, Australia
Okay so a face mill will be a big chunk of steell with 4,5,6 inserts.

It will cut the top of a bit of steel, but so will a fly cutter, but only 1 insert.

So I'm trying to workout where or when you would use a face mill and when you would use a fly cutter, seing it if they both do the same thing..

Maybe you can cut deeper and faset with face mill, compared to fly.

Buy fly can cut larger diameter?

Which gives a better smoother flatter finish?


Cheers
Peter
 
Well think about it.

You have multiple cutting edges VS 1. A VERY BASIC way to look at it is you can move the cutter as many times as the number of cutting edges faster through the work at a given RPM. Face mills are lke fly cutters on steroids. :cheers:
 
Yeah was sorta thinking that. Its just you see a lot of people on the internet DIY/Hobbist flycutting moreso than face milling.

Maybe they just don't want to pay for a face mill when a fly will do?
 
much easier to grind a special profile into the side of a flycutter "on the fly" then space the cutter out from the holder for clearance. Gives a nice radial relief, but it's a nasty, interupted cut....Joe
 
Maybe they just don't want to pay for a face mill when a fly will do?

Yes, if you are doing something for fun on a Saturday morning you can tolerate a fairly low metal removal rate.

If you have customers stacked up, waiting for parts, and time is money it's another matter.

I'm sure you've grokked this, but if you want to take advantage of the higher metal removal rates you need a mill with more HP, and with more meat on it's bones (heavier, more rigid construction). Home shop machinists (present company excepted) tend not to able/willing/inclined to move a 6000lb machine into their basement shop. A flycutter will run and give good results on less weighty, less powerful machines, but with lower metal removal rates.

I just passed up a very nice Cincinnati shaper. Went for $900 bucks. Near my home. About 8000lbs. SWMBO probably would accept a ~700lb Atlas or a 1000lb (?) Hardinge TM. But not an 8000lb shaper. Alas.

Best,

Jim
 
Yeah was sorta thinking that. Its just you see a lot of people on the internet DIY/Hobbist flycutting moreso than face milling.

Maybe they just don't want to pay for a face mill when a fly will do?

just different economics, homeshop is trying to control total costs whereas commercial shop is trying to maximize throughput against overhead.
 
What size mill do you have? That is important because of the power it takes to use an insert type facing head compaired to a flycutter. I have a MillPort which is the same as a BridgePort. I use flycutters and can take a .030-.050" DOC in steel depending on the width of the metal. I run the spindle at about 1000 rpm and I get a nice finish. Always cut from right to left so the chips go away from you.

With a flycutter making a complete pass the width of the metal the finish will be uniform. With a facing head if you have to take several passes to cover the width there will be marks where the cuts overlap.

You can probably take deeper cuts with the faceing mill head than the flycutter.

You could use a facing head to machine it fast and then finish it out with a flycutter across the whole width to get a nice even finish.
 
A flycutter and heavy cuts, preferably with a dull tool is used to beat the living piss out of your milling machine so it is not good for anything at all :-).

I would only use one for very light cuts on surfaces too wide to cover by another more mill friendly method.

One example of this was a job my Dad did where they had to make some aluminum pointers, kind of like a clock hand, but 12" long.....they were ganged together 20-30 at a time, and the taper was milled on them with a large fly cutter...sharp tool, high rpm, light cuts....mill friendly.

Bill
 
Okay so a face mill will be a big chunk of steell with 4,5,6 inserts.

It will cut the top of a bit of steel, but so will a fly cutter, but only 1 insert.

So I'm trying to workout where or when you would use a face mill and when you would use a fly cutter, seing it if they both do the same thing..

Maybe you can cut deeper and faset with face mill, compared to fly.

Buy fly can cut larger diameter?

Which gives a better smoother flatter finish?

Flycutter is very inexpensive, slowwww, beautiful surface finish (radiused HSS cutter + .002" DOC = mirror finish), light cuts, soothing action ("snick, snick, snick ..."). Think shaper.

Facemill is expensive, much faster, <surface finish?>, heavy cuts, not so soothing :crazy:.

I watched a show about the making of a new protective container for the Declaration of Independence. The glass top simply sat on the aluminum housing with no gasketing and then the cavity was evacuated. The surfaces had to be really, really flat and smooth to hold vacuum. They used the equivalent of a flycutter to surface the housing. It took days to make the cut though :toetap:.

Regards.

Finegrain
 
I use a flycutter because it is cheap. Each insert in the face mill is 10 to 20 bucks. A 3/8 brazed carbide tool is $9 new and buckets of them are given away for scrap prices. 6 of them will last a lifetime in a flycutter. If you do not need heavy stock removal at fast speeds it is hard to beat a flycutter.
 
Facemill is expensive, much faster, <surface finish??

If you hand select the inserts in your face mill so they all extend close to the same distance a face mill can give you a surface finish that comes close to that of a fly cutter.

I do this by putting it in the machine over a flat surface and using feeler gauges to swap the inserts around until they match.

Face mills using the highly positive APKT insert work well on BP sized machines, and if you shop around you can pick them up for not too bad a cost. After having used one I'd never want to go back to a fly cutter, too slow and too hard on the spindle (unless you take just whisper cuts).

Paul T.
 
You might find a single tooth cutter getting dull right in the middle of a cut,and messing things up for you. That can be inconvenient.
 
Not to disagree, I am not a "machinist", per se, but the latest Machinists Workshop has a plan for a 3 tooth flycutter that screws onto an R8 shank.

That is BP size toolholder. Also some of the mini-mills, but what the hell?

Cheers,

George
 
I use a flycutter because it is cheap. Each insert in the face mill is 10 to 20 bucks. A 3/8 brazed carbide tool is $9 new and buckets of them are given away for scrap prices. 6 of them will last a lifetime in a flycutter. If you do not need heavy stock removal at fast speeds it is hard to beat a flycutter.
Build a facemill utilizing the unused points on diamond inserts....cheap...ha! Pretty close to free, since the inserts were scrap anyway, and you still get heavy cuts....In fact, I've found that if you stagger the inserts, (rake and height) you can take unbelievably deep cuts, and with only one point hitting at the lowest point, you can get a damn nice surface finish if you back off for your finish pass.
George uhhh...I mean gmatov said:
3 tooth fly cutter
We always have called face mills "fly cutters" around here....I wonder if that's what "Machinists Workshop " has done???
 
Flycutters are slow?????? Not where I have worked. I started using them in 1989 and the machinists there showed me how to make fast heavy cuts with them. We built hydralic expander/shrinkers to work tubing from 6" to as large as 10'. We mostly used flycutters and they always outperformed multicutter heads for what we did, plus they gave a better overall finish with very little overlaping tool marks if the head was swept in real close.

The BridgePorts in that shop had been used with flycutters taking heavy +/- .050" DOC at fast feed rates for many years and none of the spindles had ever had the bearings replaced and they were still in good condition when I left there in 1993.

A flycutter does not damage the bearings as some seem to think they do. We always ran the spindle at 1000 rpm +/- according to how the cut felt and we used a fairly fast feed with power feeds.

If you learn how to really use a flycutter you will like them. Of course, if your afraid of them you'll never like them. If you run it slow and a heavy cut I agree it will hammer like hell.
 
just different economics, homeshop is trying to control total costs whereas commercial shop is trying to maximize throughput against overhead.

That strikes me as an insightful observation. And obviously the "total cost" criterion applies, to varying degrees, to shops which are supporting a technical or development effort.

The economics of, say, making a hob to do one wormwheel of a non-standard profile just don't stack up, when you can use a relatively simple flycutter to hob it to the same accuracy - I choose this example to illustrate that flycutters are not restricted to milling machines.

I do a bit of design and methods consulting for machine, mechanism and product development, and I used to get frustrated sometimes when a client's in-house shop would throw up their hands at doing prototypes, because they couldn't shake off the 'maximize throughput against overhead' imperative burned deep into their patterns of thought.

That's one reason I gradually set up my own prototyping shop. The real reason is I love machine tools, always did, always will ....

As well as flycutters vs facemills (or hobs), "McGyver's law" explains why shapers can still be relevant and useful to HS operators, similarly pantographs. (Both the topic of recent discussions, no doubt there are plenty of other examples)

As others have said, tooling cost tends towards trivial when doing it the 'old' way.
Just as importantly, when the inevitable design tweaks crop up, it's often relatively easy to make small changes to that tooling and run the job again.

Having said that, we all know the 'break even' batch size for CNC has not bottomed out yet, and of course there are some types of prototyping work where manual machines do not cut it, especially where the finished part will be made by CNC, or moulded.

However for the small proto shop I quite liked the recent idea from another thread of a rapid proto (3D printed) master in resin, duplicated by a pantograph -- or a copy turning lathe, for turned shapes.
 
Buy fly can cut larger diameter?

In a given machine, this is often the reason to go to a fly cutter; for rigidity and flywheel effect you can rig up effectively a faceplate (with a boss bolted to it holding the tool)

Such an approach can push it out to maybe 16" diameter on a turret mill which would struggle to run a 5" facemill

This means the ability to take a single cut, with no steps, to a high finish, on a machine which would normally be considered too small by far.

For a really good finish, head tram has to be such that the tool JUST misses cutting on the backswing, eliminating crosshatch.

However with a big diameter, that's a tiny angle (and correspondingly not much concavity), particularly if you have the tool really sharp, to minimise how much you have to raise it round the back.
 
Chipper,

I didn't call it that. The mag did. Actually "triplex flycutter", using 3/8 D shanks with brazed in inserts, separately adjusted.

I tend to consider a flycutter as a single point beam style tool, similar to a trepanning tool. Face mills were shell cutters with inserts at the periphery.

Cheers,

George
 
Chipper,

I didn't call it that. The mag did. Actually "triplex flycutter", using 3/8 D shanks with brazed in inserts, separately adjusted.

I tend to consider a flycutter as a single point beam style tool, similar to a trepanning tool. Face mills were shell cutters with inserts at the periphery.

Cheers,

George
I figured that much George. I wish I knew how to post pics I have some pretty cool shop bilt cutters around my shop.

They would be a perfect fit in this thread.

I have made one very similar to the one you described that was in the magazine, except there are twelve cutters, and instead of braized carbide, we bought some 1/2" shank indexable carbide holders.

That one chucks up in the lathe, and we mount the workpiece on the crosslide for some serious face milling. Works like a champ.
--I might ask my kids for some internet pointers and get some pictures posted...sometime.

:cheers:
bluechipper
 








 
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