Whats the standard of knowledge to be considered a CNC machinist?

I'd like to become a machinist in the trade. But right now I'm just a CNC operator. I understand the title "machinist" has been sort of watered down. Often times I'm looking through the job pages and notice they want to hire a machinist but really just want someone to operate.

So with this thread I was looking for more guidance or direction. I want to know what it means to be a CNC machinist that people on this forum can respect. What should I look to learn and be capable of doing? Do I have to have completed an apprenticeship?

I'm unsure what to do. I have 3 years of operating CNC experience. All 3 years were with different machines. I'm ready to leave my current position on 2nd shift because there isn't much learning to gain. It's just 2 guys and I'm the most experienced. I learn what I can on the overlap period we have with first shift. I spoke with the programmer on our swiss department and he reinforced my position and indirectly suggested to find a place that I can learn under more knowledgeable workers for more than just 2 hours a day.

So after deciding to leave, I question what my next position should entail to be on the path as a machinist. Should I look for a 4 year apprenticeship? Or can I become this without the apprenticeship. Or should I stack on what I already know, seek an operating job and get promoted into set-up, while taking CNC programming courses or any relevant classes for that matter.(i.e solid works/cad/mastercam)

Thanks for any responses !!

Finding a good apprenticeship will probably be difficult these days. I mean one in which you will actually be moved from machine to machine and spend enough time with each type of machine that you will actually learn as much as you should.

I guess my first suggestion would be to try to locate a suitable shop first. Look for somewhere with a wide variety of machines or you will need to make several moves over time as you learn the machine types to several shops with differing specialties. Also might be a good idea to express your desire to learn once you find a good place, many employers (not all though) like to hear things like that.

Personally, I feel the most important parts to learn to be a good machinist are how to make good rigid setups, optimal order of operations and learning the correct way to optimize your removal rate. After that, it's important to learn what changes to make to all of those when problems arise. These are all applicable to any kind of machining, be it manual or CNC - the computer "programming" part is not really that difficult in comparison IMO. Of course skill with using precision measuring equipment is a must as well.

I just finished a Fanuc certification course as I thought my CNC experience was a little too "learn as you go" and they break CNC machine work down into three different positions.

Programmer
Setup
Operator

They freely admit that depending on the company you work at and the type of work done you can end up doing one, two or all three jobs.

They also stress that Operators are the starting rung. No matter the amount of experience you have if you want to move to the next level and become a Setup person then you need to start getting that type of work.

At a large company it's easy to tell which role you fill. Do you get the program from the programmer, make fixtures, set tool offsets, run first parts until they are all meeting spec, make tweaks to make the program run on that specific machine better? If you do all that then hand the job off to an Operator for actual production and don't spend your days actually just running parts you are a Setup guy. They have a lot more responsibility and get paid accordingly.

Operators usually load and unload the machines. Do maintenance while its running. Deburr and other prep work also between cycles. Then the gray area depending on the company. Set up new tools when they start to wear, or call the setup guy. Do basic size check or hand off to the QA guy. The Operator responsibilities can be pretty broad, or very narrow depending on the company. BUT, they all have to do with keeping a part IN production going.

You get the picture. There really isn't a CNC 'machinist' unless you are in a position to do all three CNC jobs. This would be a small company or job shop, or you do prototype, R&D and small run items.

So if you are ready to move up from Operator then make sure you can do all the Setup jobs and demonstrate this so you can move up the ladder. This will include making slight tweaks to the programs and feeding this back to the programmer so you need to know that too.

Hopefully this was helpful, sounds like you want to jump from Operator to Setup. Hopefully your company has a path for someone with the desire, drive and skill set. If not, watch them, learn the stuff, and go to a place that will let you be a entry level Setup guy.

georgee1 said:

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I'd like to become a machinist in the trade. But right now I'm just a CNC operator. I understand the title "machinist" has been sort of watered down. Often times I'm looking through the job pages and notice they want to hire a machinist but really just want someone to operate.

So with this thread I was looking for more guidance or direction. I want to know what it means to be a CNC machinist that people on this forum can respect. What should I look to learn and be capable of doing? Do I have to have completed an apprenticeship?

I'm unsure what to do. I have 3 years of operating CNC experience. All 3 years were with different machines. I'm ready to leave my current position on 2nd shift because there isn't much learning to gain. It's just 2 guys and I'm the most experienced. I learn what I can on the overlap period we have with first shift. I spoke with the programmer on our swiss department and he reinforced my position and indirectly suggested to find a place that I can learn under more knowledgeable workers for more than just 2 hours a day.

So after deciding to leave, I question what my next position should entail to be on the path as a machinist. Should I look for a 4 year apprenticeship? Or can I become this without the apprenticeship. Or should I stack on what I already know, seek an operating job and get promoted into set-up, while taking CNC programming courses or any relevant classes for that matter.(i.e solid works/cad/mastercam)

Thanks for any responses !!

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some places really want you to have a diploma either from apprenticeship or a college associates degree. i have taken college courses attending night school to learn more about cnc as i started as a manual machinist. when you only take some courses like mastercam you dont get diploma unless you take all of the courses. cost can easily be $10,000 depends on college and courses taken. college is a business like anything they are there to make money.
got to decide if you want to learn things or you want the piece of paper called a diploma. often diploma is worth more when trying to find a job
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but remember many jobs they dont need or want a programmer especially mastercam if they use different software. many places want a setup and operator who can do basic programming for simple jobs. complex jobs with parts over a ton and many hundreds of features rarely would they want anybody to do it part time. best programmer does the most complex programming and the best setup operators run the program making parts. plenty of manual machining jobs and plenty of simple cnc jobs they allow you to do over time.
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find a big company with many machines. ask for transfer or apply for different job positions with more responsibility when you have enough experience. usually got to stay at least a year on any one machine or department. as you can do more and run more machines usually pay goes up.
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cnc operator can easily make $75,000 or more per year with the overtime. often a programmer makes less money as they are often limited on overtime. just saying a lot of places a cnc operator can easily make more money than a programmer. recently i was reclassified a cnc machinist instead of machine operator since at same time i was given my 7th pay raise in 5 years who am i to say anything but thank you. i have a machinist diploma from a apprenticeship but its only worth something if boss thinks its worth something
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it can help to know how to use microsoft excel and powerpoint as they can help with
1) feeds and speeds calculations
2) creating checklists and work logs
3) creating setup info
......a boss usually appreciates some one who collects data and can determine how to do stuff faster without scrap and rework and extra high tooling costs. rarely does anybody ask operator to do it. but the ones who do it and produce more with less scrap and rework it shows up at the end of the year if the boss tracks productivity and scrap data. it helps to read the machines manuals even if they are over 2000 pages
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been my experience its better to work on bigger and more expensive parts. usually get paid more. usually got to ask to run bigger machines rarely does anybody assign it to you. or as i did i applied for a job transfer to bigger machines as i wanted to get more experience

I only ever served an apprenticeship under myself, as an employee of my own company. I did a fair bit of reading (book learnin') to get started on manual lathe and later on mill. I started out in repair work, so that could entail a very wide variety of work, including learning to arc weld. The secret to gaining experience is successfully completing a task within the scope of your shop capability, and remembering what you want to do better 'next time' that sort of job comes around. Even with cnc work, I'm often tweaking an old program a little on an annual basis (or however often the job repeats) because I decide to finally eliminate some hand work that I put up with the previous time round. Or my cadcam has a better machining solution than doing things the older way.

I had an older fellow work for me for a while who basically was 'stuck' at whatever level he had achieved because he couldn't seem to remember his own experience from one week to the next. He was definitely 'operator material' because he was fine at doing almost exactly the same thing day after day, but I'd have to give him a few pointers on stuff I thought he should remember from a couple of weeks previous.

I really think that the self employed machinist is likely the one who stands to have the most wide range of experience. It is only natural that your boss is going to take advantage of whatever natural strengths he discovers in you, and put you on one machine in one department, where you can produce the greatest return. But in a self employed situation, you will have no choice but to diversify and adapt your thinking to the problem at hand. It is really the hard work of beating a problem down to a solution that gives you useful experience, moreso than working under others who can only pass on what they have learned on making a particular part while running a particular program. That is such specific experience (and anecdotal) that it really doesn't expand your learning very much.

I didn't have any great issue moving from manual machining into cnc. Setup is setup. Workholding is workholding. Tooling runs at certain speeds depending on the material of both the tool and the work. Cutting tool manufacturers provide a nice engineering section in their tool catalogs to get you in the ballpark, no need to be lost on the details, you just need to know where to look. Learn and understand the fundamentals so you can progress to more difficult problems.

Someone who doesn't weld is likely not to include solutions that involve some welding.....simply because it is outside their scope. Machinists who cannot weld are missing out on some important experience and solutions (fixture building, part reclamation).

All that being said, a small shop could be the place where you're going to gain the most experience as they'll require you to move around most frequently. And don't be afraid to dabble in manual machining, if nothing else, it will make you appreciate what a cnc can do. Anybody who calls themselves a cnc machinist and who cannot use manual equipment is still just an operator to me. You might not 'like' manual machining, but to be totally lost on a manual lathe or mill shows a definite deficit in fundamental understanding of how things work.

The most cogent sentence on this forum in living memory

You might not 'like' manual machining, but to be totally lost on a manual lathe or mill shows a definite deficit in fundamental understanding of how things work.

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Since you are already working 2nd shift, go look at local machining/manufacturing programs and see if it would be an option for you to do.

I went through a 2 year program right out of HS, and it was by far the best thing to learn what I needed to know. I ended up transferring to a 4 year university and worked at a local machine shop while going through that program. I felt very good about what I knew going into that job, especially compared to others I worked with. I'll admit that I did not learn much from the 4 year program and I was teaching the instructors in some cases. I was doing it everyday on more current machines and such than they were. Anyway, go look and see what you can find to learn the programming and setup during the day while you continue to work 2nd. Do that for 2 years and then you will know much better where you want to go. My 2 year degree included welding courses and metrology etc that will help you understand other processes that tie into machining which will only give you leg up in my opinion.

Trying to learn on the job programming from scratch is tough, you will struggle and get frustrated and most likely the coworkers don't have the time to help like they should. They may not have the other resources to let you learn it either, as in they may not have any extra seats of the cam software and such.

usually better to apply for job or job transfer to machines making bigger parts as it usually pays more
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if you making $2. parts rarely is pay very high cause your making $2. parts
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often people never leave job cause pay level might actually go down for a few years until you learn enough on the new job to be worth more pay. i have seen people turn down apprenticeship cause they were worried about a pay cut during apprenticeship. short term thinking affect life time decisions

young machinist rarely know everything about setups and running machines. often working with others, or even following work instructions you see how things are done or machines are operated. then doing jobs on your own you adapt from you learned experiences. you always working by yourself you rarely learn as much as working with others or following instruction done by others as a person often doesnt try new things but gets stuck repeating stuff
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thats why a journey man machinist needs to travel and or work with others and other shops to learn how others do things different. hard to describe unless you have done it.
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i have seen many just out of school get stuck at job or part they never done before and have no ideal how to do it. again hard to describe unless you have been there

As a recovering machine shop owner, I can assure you that the best CNC machinists learned to run manual machines first. There are lots of CNC programmers (with big heads) who do not understand the basics. If you can find a program at a local school, take it. Find a job in a real job shop where you will encounter a variety of machines, materials and types of work. These are usually shops with 10-25 employees and owned by an irascible, unreasonable, cigar chewing curmudgeon. Formal apprenticeship programs are almost non-existent.

A few-Several things IMO.


1 Manual Turning
2 Manual Milling
2.5 Using most of the peripheral stuff, Rotab, Taper attachment, Grinding wheel, FILE, Horizontal attachment....
3 Usage of Inspection equipment
4 Math skills (people say basic, but that's relative, the more you know....)
5 Blue print interpretation skill
6 OWN your own hand tools
7 Conscientiousness cannot be overstated, know what you are doing, why you are d going it, what the result should be, what is acceptable, what is not, why, how, how long, when, what, if, sometimes, whatever. And examine visually your damn part when it's finished!!!

Point is in 2017 you are never going to know everything, there is too much tech out there. So go back to the basics, the fundamentals. Interesting how in these dark times people are at a loss when their technology doesn't work. There are lots of ways to skin a Cat, and some of them are tried and true for hundreds of years or more. Funny when people don't know how to use Gage Blocks or a test indicator in all it's 5 million ways.

Remember young Padewan; first you get good, then you get fast. Any numb nuts can make a lot of junk fast.

R

EDIT;(this could go on forever) But the phrase "there are no stupid questions" is stupid statement from stupid corporate managers, there are in fact stupid questions. That doesn't mean spend 2 days meditating on whether to use a 13mm wrench or a 1/2". It just means shit happens, people make mistakes, and the worst mistakes can be the best learning experiences. IF you are faced with success or tragedy, then ask. Really ask away, I just hate that phrase. Work in a Jobbing shop, production has it's place, but it isn't the place for solidifying yourself in Manufacturing.

"Whats the standard of knowledge to be considered a CNC machinist?"

around these parts.....

1. finger
2. button
3. can read a caliper and/or micrometer
4. willing to work for under $10/hr

that just about sums it up.

MrWhoopee said:

As a recovering machine shop owner, I can assure you that the best CNC machinists learned to run manual machines first. There are lots of CNC programmers (with big heads) who do not understand the basics. If you can find a program at a local school, take it. Find a job in a real job shop where you will encounter a variety of machines, materials and types of work. These are usually shops with 10-25 employees and owned by an irascible, unreasonable, cigar chewing curmudgeon. Formal apprenticeship programs are almost non-existent.

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one way to learn is cnc operator does setups and runs programs from others and he looks at programs and understands why some programs work better than others. conversational programming you do manual machining, simple cnc to complex cnc often all in the same day.
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scrap a small part and go to rack and get block closest to size. create program to make block same size as block you lost from scrapped part. obviously if making program fast you do it fast to cover fact that you scrapped a part in the first place
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many a operator learned programming just creating programs fast covering for fact they scrapped a part. hard to describe. also learn programming by taking a similar program and changing whats needed for a new part thats similar

litlerob1 said:

EDIT;(this could go on forever) But the phrase "there are no stupid questions" is stupid statement from stupid corporate managers, there are in fact stupid questions. That doesn't mean spend 2 days meditating on whether to use a 13mm wrench or a 1/2". It just means shit happens, people make mistakes, and the worst mistakes can be the best learning experiences. IF you are faced with success or tragedy, then ask. Really ask away, I just hate that phrase.

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Yeah there are stupid questions. I hate that phrase also. If you ask a question and after getting the answer, realize that you already had all the necessary information to answer the question yourself if you'd just thought about it for a second - that's a stupid question. And a waste of time for the person you bothered to answer it.

Also, being a self-employed machinist is good for getting the chance to run all the different machines in your shop, but not so good for running machines you don't own or can't afford. You also don't get the exposure to ideas and knowledge that other people can pass on to you. And let me tell you, that is a massive timesaver versus trying to learn everything by yourself via trial and error. Which is why apprenticeships were developed. It is quite a shame that they have devolved to the point that they have.

apprenticeship journeyman and master machinist best way to explain
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you want to make quality steel. after 100,000 batches made and 99,000 failures or bad stuff made and spending 10 to 10,000 times more time and money needed to learn technology. eventually you learn it faster and cheaper to partner with expert work with expert what ever you want to call it.
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only college types who dont get out much would ever think it is so easy to learn anything all on your own
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you want a doctor who didnt go to school and work with other doctors but learned medicine all on his own ?? to operate on anybody from your family ??

Georgee1: Keep in mind that the programmer that discretely suggested that you move on, doesn't want anyone around that may be interested and capable of taking his job. That being said, his recommendation isn't entirely invalid. If moving to another job isn't terribly inconvenient, it could be a good move. Forget the term CNC machinist, you need to get into manual machining. It is not a short road, but worth it. Good luck.

JH

eKretz said:

Yeah there are stupid questions. I hate that phrase also. If you ask a question and after getting the answer, realize that you already had all the necessary information to answer the question yourself if you'd just thought about it for a second - that's a stupid question. And a waste of time for the person you bothered to answer it.

Also, being a self-employed machinist is good for getting the chance to run all the different machines in your shop, but not so good for running machines you don't own or can't afford. You also don't get the exposure to ideas and knowledge that other people can pass on to you. And let me tell you, that is a massive timesaver versus trying to learn everything by yourself via trial and error. Which is why apprenticeships were developed. It is quite a shame that they have devolved to the point that they have.

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The real stupid question is the one where the inquirer is primarily interested in the exact answer to get him by for this moment. Good questions inquire about axioms and principles, and good answers build a logical background framework of applied knowledge.

Other stupid questions, are the ones that someone asks and does not listen to or heed the answer. Should I stick my finger in there? NO!......Ouch.

What is this? I don't know read the label!

But I also have to take responsibility for my deficit. Like I assume that when people see bright red burning Metal, the automatic response would be, shut her down. I have had a guy walk right tup to me and ask, while it is happening.

Good questions inquire about axioms and principles, and good answers build a logical background framework of applied knowledge.

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I agree 110% problem is how do you teach one to ask the right question in the first place.

Agree with the above.

Learn the fundamentals. I like looking through old machining text books. I still find helpful work holding methods and machining principles in books that are 100 years old.

The fundamentals can be applied to any machine tool. There is nothing "mystical" about CNC machine tools. Just another tool to do the job.

I worked in small shops before I started my own. Good experiences since I was not stuck doing the same thing all the time. I always watch to see what the smarter guys were doing. I operated many different manual and automatic machines as well as CAD and design work. However, I had not run any CNC machines before I started my own shop. CNC was easy to incorporate into the shop when I was able to afford it. The same fundamentals applied, it is just a different way to turn the handles.

Bill

Bill in PA said:

Agree with the above.

Learn the fundamentals. I like looking through old machining text books. I still find helpful work holding methods and machining principles in books that are 100 years old.

The fundamentals can be applied to any machine tool. There is nothing "mystical" about CNC machine tools. Just another tool to do the job.

I worked in small shops before I started my own. Good experiences since I was not stuck doing the same thing all the time. I always watch to see what the smarter guys were doing. I operated many different manual and automatic machines as well as CAD and design work. However, I had not run any CNC machines before I started my own shop. CNC was easy to incorporate into the shop when I was able to afford it. The same fundamentals applied, it is just a different way to turn the handles.

Bill

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Yes, I browsed through one of those 100 year old machinist texts a few years ago. Wow, those guys really went into the details on everything. Although we can accomplish wonderful things with our modern cnc machines and computers running brilliant software, we're basically buying a lot of smarts off the shelf and then pretending we're great at something Our duty is pretty well to do it fast, cheap and accurate, and then sell any two of those attributes as a completed job.