Who draws the prints for your jobs?

I draw a ton of prints for the jobs I do. There's a lot of hydraulic crap that I make. Drawing those is pretty straight forward and doesn't take too long. I'm no engineer or draftsman....by a long shot, but I do have a puny little program that gets me by.
Now to the problem. I do modification to some stuff for a big company. I told them going in that I charge $100 an hour whether I'm making a print or machining. They're fine with that. I just told one eng. that I will now charge $150 an hour for drawing. He went a bit goofy over that. They aren't gonna like this shit! They not gonna like it one fuckin' bit! Oh well at 70 years old, I don't really give a rat's ass. Go somewhere else. Come on Ray, what gives? OK Joe here's what GIVES! If you and your pile of engineers would use one of you fifty or so computers to do a CAD drawing for me, I wouldn't have to charge you a cent. Now, if you just happen to mess up the print and the piece suddenly turns to scrap, I simply make another one and charge you again. Even though all of you guys supposedly know how to do it, you say you don't have time. You think I do! So here's the problem. I draw the print. I screw up the print. I lose all those hours and material. Now I start over at my expense. Don't you understand that it's a liability. This one job alone has 56 holes in just one of the plates. Some counter bored, some thru and some threaded. And away he went shaking his head.

Your thoughts?

I guess I am surprised at the reaction of the engineer. He should recognize that it is his job to produce workable error free drawings and that if you have to make workable drawings, there is something wrong on his end. Frankly, I don't think you are charging enough.

In days of yore, there were check draftsmen. I am sure at your age you remember them. Their job was to completely redraw the part using the original drawing to check for errors. Well, they don't do now. Further, some places don't even have draftsmen. So you are his check draftsman.

Tom

Are you making a "print" just for paper, or making a "solid model" or other type of "CAD file" to drive a machine tool ?

Ray - I 100% agree! My two middle sons are starting to actively take over the business and they have "schooled" me (read scolded me) that we have to charge more for design time than machining time for that very reason.

TD - yes in the old days there were "chief draftsmen" or "chief engineers". Now it is more like everyone does their own thing and they think that has reduced the middle layer of management. All it has really done, is passed off the checking process to the outside vendor.

$150/hr is absurd. No one bills basic drafting for $150.

You need to phrase it differently, or something, if you want to give him a "fuck off" price. Up the hours or put a minimum charge for drafting.

What are they giving you to make prints of anyways? Do they give you a part to reverse engineer? Do they give you a dumb 3D model with no drawing?

I think it has more to do with how you said it as opposed to what you're getting at.

JNieman said:

$150/hr is absurd. No one bills basic drafting for $150.

You need to phrase it differently, or something, if you want to give him a "fuck off" price. Up the hours or put a minimum charge for drafting.

What are they giving you to make prints of anyways? Do they give you a part to reverse engineer? Do they give you a dumb 3D model with no drawing?

I think it has more to do with how you said it as opposed to what you're getting at.

Click to expand...

Its really not "basic drafting" in today's world. Engineers are doing their own drafting. Ray is really charging an engineering fee.

Ray's monologue: "Come on Ray, what gives? OK Joe here's what GIVES! If you and your pile of engineers would use one of you fifty or so computers to do a CAD drawing for me, I wouldn't have to charge you a cent. Now, if you just happen to mess up the print and the piece suddenly turns to scrap, I simply make another one and charge you again. Even though all of you guys supposedly know how to do it, you say you don't have time."

What is the cost of an engineer these days?

Tom

digger doug said:

Are you making a "print" just for paper, or making a "solid model" or other type of "CAD file" to drive a machine tool ?

Click to expand...

Doug,
This is a manual only shop, so yes, just paper.

If the part is simple, I don't charge at all for drawing/drafting time. Though I'm very proficient with CAD programs. I always send the detailed print over to the customer and get their approval before commencing on the work. I've had it happen several times where I messed up the print, but since they approved the print, I put the blame on them and charged them for a replacement part, or all of a sudden they can live with the part as-is. It's all through email though, and there's disclaimers I include with the print and they sign off on the print giving their approval. I've never had any issues with customers wanting a free replacement after they sign off on an incorrect print.

Ray Behner said:

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

He's a naif.

If he knew his s**t he'd have known that before he came in the door already INSISTING they had control over the drawings and all other docs from Big Bang. Part of the 'deliverables', backtrail, supporting files going forward, and - as you've shown him - cheaper as well if they are 'in it' from the outset.

Where TF is his company going to be if you have a coronary? Go broke? Go nuts?

Or just say "I'm retired, now!" and go fishing?

Can he even SPELL "b***f****d", let alone learn to LIKE it?

Bill

TDegenhart said:

Its really not "basic drafting" in today's world. Engineers are doing their own drafting. Ray is really charging an engineering fee.

Ray's monologue: "Come on Ray, what gives? OK Joe here's what GIVES! If you and your pile of engineers would use one of you fifty or so computers to do a CAD drawing for me, I wouldn't have to charge you a cent. Now, if you just happen to mess up the print and the piece suddenly turns to scrap, I simply make another one and charge you again. Even though all of you guys supposedly know how to do it, you say you don't have time."

What is the cost of an engineer these days?

Tom

Click to expand...

I do get where you're coming from and do mostly agree. However, just because an engineer DOES the drafting doesn't mean it's engineering. Engineers are forced into a wider swath of responsibilities, but they can't all be billed as 'engineering' just because an engineer does it at another company. Drafting is drafting. If Ray was expected to confront a particular problem or requirement, design a solution from scratch, spec'ing manufacturing requirements, material and processes, finishing specs, as well as putting it in the PLM system, then sure, he could bill it as engineering.

If an engineer hires a drafter to do the drafting, would he get the same salary? I doubt this.

Drawing a part, typing dimensions and all that... that's just drafting. So yes, $150/hr charge is pretty steep, IMO. If it were simply framed differently, then it'd probably be taken with more understanding. That's why I like the minimum charge - even little simple drawings take a certain amount of time away from machines and have their own PITA factor. In an all-manual shop, especially, that's gotta be worse.

We have several customers that just send us 'dumb' models or a part, and require us to make up drawings all on our own (I'm the one who does it, in fact) and I'd be happier if all customers would just give us complete drawings and let us only worry about workholding, process improvements, tooling and fixturing. I understand the desire to 'push them' to move that way. I'm just suggesting a possible way to get the point across in a way they're more understanding of.

Or maybe it's better to piss them off and that'll be more likely to result in them doing the drawings.

Sometimes you have to hit a mule with a two by four to get their attention.

Tom

TDegenhart said:

Sometimes you have to hit a mule with a two by four to get their attention.

Tom

Click to expand...

Especially if the 'mule' thinks he is getting a free/cheap ride and not thinking through his risk and exposure as the possible price of it.

Wiser customers concern themselves as to how they'd be affected by changes in small shops always, aging 'key man' especially, and starting 30 years younger than Ray.

That's been the historical 'heart attack zone'. Also 'mid-life-crisis', give up chipmaking to go run a restaurant or head-boat. They had best have a 'Plan B' and documentation from that point onward. Better yet "always"

Ray is now less statistical risk (I know nada about his personal health..) than a 45 year old might be.

He is also, statistically, now well into the retire-at-will zone.

Bill

Sounds to me like you just told the engineer to do his job his own self. Of course he didn't like it. I don't blame you one bit. If you had preferred drafting to machining you would have opened a drafting shop.

The other alternative is go back to $100/hr, but all work is on the clock, whether it works or not. The engineer is gets paid even if the drawing is junk and then paid to fix it.

JNieman
You stated:
Or maybe it's better to piss them off and that'll be more likely to result in them doing the drawings.

That's the whole idea. I have absolutely NO desire to draw prints. This was a 1" thick chunk of steel with 56 holes in it. Measuring ever hole in X & Y to the thou. is a pain. With the remaining pieces I had to measure I had almost 5 hours in it. Uh, when's the fun start?
Yup I'll be the first to say, "I'm nuts." I can't wait to get out here in the morning and go at it all day every day. I love my job!!! 'Cept for drawing.

Ray Behner said:

JNieman
You stated:
Or maybe it's better to piss them off and that'll be more likely to result in them doing the drawings.

That's the whole idea. I have absolutely NO desire to draw prints. This was a 1" thick chunk of steel with 56 holes in it. Measuring ever hole in X & Y to the thou. is a pain. With the remaining pieces I had to measure I had almost 5 hours in it. Uh, when's the fun start?
Yup I'll be the first to say, "I'm nuts." I can't wait to get out here in the morning and go at it all day every day. I love my job!!! 'Cept for drawing.

Click to expand...

Sounds like the price is still too low at $150.

REalistically, what would they pay at an inspection shop to get the part reverse engineered? I think you'd still be competitive.

Ray Behner said:

JNieman
You stated:
Or maybe it's better to piss them off and that'll be more likely to result in them doing the drawings.

That's the whole idea. I have absolutely NO desire to draw prints. This was a 1" thick chunk of steel with 56 holes in it. Measuring ever hole in X & Y to the thou. is a pain. With the remaining pieces I had to measure I had almost 5 hours in it. Uh, when's the fun start?
Yup I'll be the first to say, "I'm nuts." I can't wait to get out here in the morning and go at it all day every day. I love my job!!! 'Cept for drawing.

Click to expand...

One trick I use to reverse engineer something with a lot of holes (like a motor bell housing or some such thing where the patterns are not simple) is first pick a baseline between two holes (dowel holes would be best, if available), then measure from each hole on that baseline to a new hole being discovered. In CAD, then draw arcs (circles) with the radii that you got by measuring (not forgetting to add the radii of the holes so as to get center). The new hole is then located where those two arcs intersect. You can discover all hole locations relative to your chosen baseline this way, and never have to measure a single angle. Verify your drawing by checking the distance between any two holes that you have not taken a measurement of, and they should be 'on'.

I find this method not to be so tedious that I feel like charging $150/hr for

Everybody in this business needs some sort of a CAD program, 70 years old, or not

gbent said:

Sounds to me like you just told the engineer to do his job his own self. Of course he didn't like it. I don't blame you one bit. If you had preferred drafting to machining you would have opened a drafting shop.

The other alternative is go back to $100/hr, but all work is on the clock, whether it works or not. The engineer is gets paid even if the drawing is junk and then paid to fix it.

Click to expand...

There's the basic differentiator.

Ray didn't say '(MY) product.'

.. as in him holding the Intellectual Property Rights, formal or otherwise to the design.


He said '(THEIR) parts.'

.. as-in he didn't even get to decide what it WAS, let alone what shape or flavour.

Drawing, designing, interpreting off a recycled napkin, old envelope or two-way phone call.. that's the customer's responsibility, and billable work from anyone not under their own roof.

'Designer' not just draughtsman, where it has to be 'decoded', throubleshat, fed-back for corrections, repeat, repeat.

Hundred and a half an hour is a 'fully burdened' figure, too. Covers part of Ray's air-con bill, office supplies, chair, and everything.

Not at all a high number. Staff Engineer at the client happens to have a decent package, benefits, well-resourced environment, good 'puters and latest software, his fully-burdened costs may be higher-yet.


Bill

Do I understand this right? You are given a part, a physical part, and then are expected to duplicate the part, presumably with some sort of change made?

OK...

I TOTALLY AGREE that it is crazy to charge $150 per hour for drafting and engineering support services. You shouldn't even need to do that. That's why it's crazy.

As a "lost opportunity charge" that may be low. When screwing around making a drawing, you are not machining, not drumming up business, etc, etc.
.
.
.

Now MY question, and it's really to HIM and not you, is DO THEY HAVE A PRINT? If not, how in heck are they controlling the configuration of their product? Even if it is a production fixture, they should have some decent drawing that defines the part (the "configuration") so they know what they have.

Perhaps (and this is "almost reasonable"), these parts are prototypes, and they follow up with drawings "later". Some do that, but they run a risk.... if you do something wrong, they may get a prototype that is not as they expect, and not know it. Then when they do the drawing, and probably draw it as it "should be", it isn;t like the proto. The proto is probably elsewhere, and unavailable for disassembling, so they donlt find out until later when stuff that was "made to fit" the proto does not fit the "real part".

OK, not YOUR problem.... but it does underline how totally clueless they seem to be. They should AT LEAST issue you a markup to go by, (and keep a copy also). Otherwise they are acting like complete dorks and will probably find that out in an expensive way.

Of course, it they are using Solidworks etc, etc, it's only about 10x worse proof of them being dorks, since it's dead simple to make a design variation in any 3D CAD.

I think $150 an hour might be in high side but definitely not unreasonable. No you wouldn't hire a drafter or designer and pay them that kind of salary. But that's what it would cost a company to employee them and also pay items like electricity, taxes, benefits, etc.

JustAbout

JustAbout said:

I think $150 an hour might be in high side but definitely not unreasonable. No you wouldn't hire a drafter or designer and pay them that kind of salary. But that's what it would cost a company to employee them and also pay items like electricity, taxes, benefits, etc.

JustAbout

Click to expand...

'A company?' You ARE one. "Fully-burdened" is what one MUST bill, whether IBM or I Be Alone.

There is no separate pot of money up in the sky to cover HVAC, space, taxes, fees, insurance, benefits, support and admin services, amortized desk, chairs, tool cabinets, lighting, transport.

It is not enough to stop with materials, machine time, your time, tooling costs that are 'obvious' to a specific job.

Nobody to bill for ANY of it but the customer(s).

Losing the value of your overheads, general and administrative expenses, borrowed funds costs, etc. on every job done is not something one just "makes up for in volume", either. Some costs decrease as a percentage. A few INCREASE.

None of them "just vanish". Lose sight of that, you can "vanish".

Bill