Who knows about brick trowels? (Alloy and manufacturing method)

JasonPAtkins · Feb 10, 2016

Hey all,
I run a little non-profit fab and machining school in West Africa. I'm always on the lookout for products that my students can make to sell locally that are going to have a better combination of utility / price / quality than the sub-Harbor Freight quality garbage that's imported from China for sale there.

Masonry is ubiquitous in that world. Trowels are available, but break often because they're pretty cheap. The shop I've built is pretty well stocked, and I'm wondering if the need for a good trowel could dovetail nicely with some of the capabilities my shop has - in this case the plasma table and spot welder. I can imagine cutting the trowel plates from sheet, several hundred per run, and then spot welding some kind of fabricated handle onto them - seems like it could be a pretty quick process in quantity.

However, I have only passing familiarity with what makes a brick trowel good or bad. The failure point of most of the cheap ones I see over there is the handle breaking apart from the base plate.

I started doing some research, and the W.Rose trowels that retail for $50 here in the States and seem to be close to the gold standard are forged from bar, not done the way I'm envisioning. Does anyone know how the $20 trowels are made?

I'd love any input, but the most specific question I'm wondering (and why I'm asking on PM instead of WeldingWeb) is: does anyone know what kind of steel the blade of a trowel would be made from? I fear that mild steel sheet is not going to have the spring required for this application. If true, that will start and end the project, because we can't buy anything other than plain mild steel. Trowels could still be made over there, but it would be a blacksmithing-from-leaf-spring-steel project - squarely outside of both my shop's expertise and equipment.

janvanruth · Feb 10, 2016

if all you can get is mild steel you can forget about it
the blades are hardened
also the blades are not spot welded but arc/mig welded

JasonPAtkins · Feb 10, 2016

janvanruth said:
if all you can get is mild steel you can forget about it
the blades are hardened
also the blades are not spot welded but arc/mig welded

That's what I was afraid of, about the steel type.

For attaching and trying to keep the bottom nice and flat though, I can't imagine many good spot welds wouldn't be superior to mig welding? Mig is only going to get around the perimeter of the joint (unless also plug welded) and make a brittle connection, don't you think? I'm new to spot welding, but it seems like it excels at joining at the root of the connection, not just the perimeter, and not messing with chemistry as much?

It's academic at this point anyway, if mild steel won't work, which I'm sure you're right about.

Illinoyance · Feb 10, 2016

The best quality brick trowels have the shank forged integrally with the blade. Cheapest ones have the blade spot welded to the shank. Typically there would be a single row of spot welds. If you want to go with an assembled trowel I suggest making the shank a bit wider where it meets the blade. Then use 2 rows of spot welds.

JST · Feb 10, 2016

Some of the ones I have are spring hardened steel, and are NOT welded, but riveted to the handle, with the countersunk rivets ground flat with the underside of the blade. The rest are old one-piece forged.

Ries · Feb 10, 2016

I have friends who forge them as small production products- and they sometimes a slightly higher carbon than mild steel.
Seems like 60,000 PSI rebar would be good, and is available anywhere.
Not sure why you are afraid of forging them- its the most efficient way to get the mass distribution and strength you want.
If you cut from plate, you waste a lot, it requires finding a higher carbon sheet that, even in the USA, is often a special order.

Forging is a constant volume process- no scrap. You can start with 3/4" round or rebar, in sizes that are considered scrap by most rebar users.
A wood, coal, or propane forge is easy to make.

https://fisherblacksmithing.com/garden-tools/
he just does garden trowels, but the concept is the same.

Weygers built a simple forge in Indonesia, right around the time of the second world war- he shows, in his books, how to make tools like this with absolute minimum money or imported fancy machinery.
The Complete Modern Blacksmith: Alexander Weygers: 9780898158960: Amazon.com: Books

JasonPAtkins · Feb 10, 2016

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with what you're all saying about forging - except the point here isn't to make trowels, it's for my fabricating students to make something salable. Unfortunately, blacksmithing isn't currently part of our curriculum or equipment portfolio.

Thanks again for the wisdom. It seems like I need to keep looking for a different project for them that's a better fit for the skills they're learning and the equipment we have ready to use.

DanielG · Feb 10, 2016

This might be a stupid idea (I don't know too much about needs in West Africa), but what about stoves, either wood or propane? It could cover much of what I imagine is in your curriculum: sheet metal work, welding, and machining.

JasonPAtkins · Feb 10, 2016

DanielG said:
This might be a stupid idea (I don't know too much about needs in West Africa), but what about stoves, either wood or propane? It could cover much of what I imagine is in your curriculum: sheet metal work, welding, and machining.

Thanks for the suggestion. We do already make a variety of things, including metal chairs and doors. Custom metal stuff (like a gate or house front door) is much more common over there because of the high cost of imported products and availability of cheap labor. We also do make a copy of a cook stove that's ubiquitous over there. I don't seem to have a picture, but it's about a foot tall, sits on the ground, and has a small charcoal or wood fire in it where you set a pot directly on top of the burning charcoal to cook. We lose money making and selling those though, because most of the ones made outside our school for sale are made by people cutting up scrap 1/8" or so sheet with a cold chisel, then tack welding the pieces together. They probably make about $2 on each one for their labor. Buying new steel to make them costs us more in material than those guys are selling their finished product for, lol - we just do them for experience for the students.

When I'm back over there next month I'll try to remember to get a picture and update the thread so you can see what I'm talking about.

JasonPAtkins · Feb 10, 2016

Ah, here, I found someone else's picture of what I'm talking about...

In use

Modelman · Feb 10, 2016

The reason bricklayer trowels are forged, and heat treated, is traditionally, the mason used his trowel to cut brick. I know, trying to find a youtube video to illustrate, all the DIY guys think they need a chisel, but for old time soft common brick, the brickey would hold the brick in his hand by the end and smack it where he wanted the cut with the edge of the trowel. He's hit the edge, flip it in his hand, hit the flat side, flip it again, and usually when he hit the other edge, the brick would fall into two pieces, with the one he wanted still in his hand. Really fast. Likely caused carpel tunnel, but no one used to worry about that.

Dennis

On edit:

At 13:00 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS5srtCBAMQ

janvanruth · Feb 10, 2016

amazing how many regional styles in trowels there are

P. Hermann Jung GmbH & Co. KG - Ihr Meister in Sachen Bauhandwerk

maybe at some time the handles were forge welded to the blades
since decades the handles are arc/mig welded to the blade which is then hardened and ground
common quality trowels used to cost at least a days pay, now they cost more like an hours pay

in Holland carpenters, tilers, plasterers floormakers and bricklayers were the only professions supposed to bring their own tools
a bricklayer would need just a couple of quality trowels during his entire working life

tdmidget · Feb 10, 2016

janvanruth, that was interesting. Does it reflect architectural differences or just local training and tradition?

When I was a kid I would watch any craftsman intently. Down the street was a seventh day adventist church that had been built of blocks. The preacher was a mason by trade and during the week if he was not on a job he was at the church, laying a brick veneer outside the blocks. I was fascinated. I remember him trimming bricks as Modelman described. it was amazingly fast, just WHACK WHACK CLANG and it was done. The trowel never had a mark from it as near as I could see. Pretty sure the shit from the big boxes can't do that.

paul39 · Feb 10, 2016

Modelman said:
The reason bricklayer trowels are forged, and heat treated, is traditionally, the mason used his trowel to cut brick. /QUOTE]

I have done a little brick laying in my life. I had bought a slightly used major brand trowel and the first time I tried cutting a brick it shattered like glass, 5 - 7 pieces.

I had cut bricks with a trowel for years and never had one do that. Apparently it was not tempered after being hardened.

Paul

janvanruth · Feb 11, 2016

tdmidget said:
janvanruth, that was interesting. Does it reflect architectural differences or just local training and tradition?

When I was a kid I would watch any craftsman intently. Down the street was a seventh day adventist church that had been built of blocks. The preacher was a mason by trade and during the week if he was not on a job he was at the church, laying a brick veneer outside the blocks. I was fascinated. I remember him trimming bricks as Modelman described. it was amazingly fast, just WHACK WHACK CLANG and it was done. The trowel never had a mark from it as near as I could see. Pretty sure the shit from the big boxes can't do that.

I think both.
Architecture has a role in the differences.
The building materails used commonly vary widely over europe.
Holland( The Netherlands) had no natural rock to quarry for building other than one "mountain"of sandstone in the utmost southern part.
The sandstone blocks were cut out in an underground quarry consisting of one ever increasing mine,
the mosasaurus was found by workers quarrying sandstone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosasaurus
The expensinve sandstone was only used for covering the outside of monumental buildings like churches and palasts
The common material was fired clay brick.
Holland is a country built up by depositions by the main rivers consisting of sand, gravel and clay
Fireable clay is found all over Holland and there were many brick killns.
Wood is not a traditional wall building material, as it was banned several hundreds of years ago for buildings in the cities because of the risks of fire.
So dutch bricklayers have worked with fairly hard bricks for centuries and their outensils are adapted to that fact.
The same goes for the dutch speaking part of Belgium, although there is more quarried stone to be found in buildings in Belgium the nearer one gets to the eastern part of Belgium and the nearer to the Ardennes where Belgian Hardstone was and is quarried.
The trowels in Holland are rather short and small but have a thick blade and are rounded on the right side and around the top. Left handed ones the other way around.
They are made to be used to cut the dutch type of bricks beeing the solid hard type.
The same goes to an extend for some german models that originate form regions in the northern part and along the river Rhine where building from bricks was predominant.
The square and triangal models are usually bigger and made of lighter steel.
They are not quite suited for cutting solid hard bricks.

Training and tradition will surely play a role.
The apprentice will likely buy the same tools the master has.
Above that the predominant type will be readily available on a local level.

Germany has a very wide variety of local styles in trowels.
Tradition must play a major role in keeping the variety.
Germany had, even after the war, a system in which an apprentice ( Lehrling), after having finished his apprenticeship, becoming a skilled worker ( Geselle) with a local recognised member of the guild ( Meister), was supposed to go out and work for a couple of years in other parts of the country ( Wandergeselle).
Although the Wandergeselle came into contact with different styles during his tour (Wanderschaft) he would still keep his original style of tooling.

Greenwud · Feb 11, 2016

janvanruth said:
amazing how many regional styles in trowels there are

P. Hermann Jung GmbH & Co. KG - Ihr Meister in Sachen Bauhandwerk

maybe at some time the handles were forge welded to the blades
since decades the handles are arc/mig welded to the blade which is then hardened and ground
common quality trowels used to cost at least a days pay, now they cost more like an hours pay

in Holland carpenters, tilers, plasterers floormakers and bricklayers were the only professions supposed to bring their own tools
a bricklayer would need just a couple of quality trowels during his entire working life

Interesting- I once attended the estate sale of a Dutchman who had immigrated to New Zealand after the war, as many did. He was a brick mason by trade, and had brought six or eight over and never used them up- I can imagine what he would endure on a job site with such odd tools and an accent.
I have one from this sale- it is much lighter than an English Tyzack, shorter and thinner; clearly the usage is different too as it lacks the steel heel on the handle and blade thickness at the widest part of the blade- no cutting bricks. All forge welded or forged in one piece.

In regard to the OPs original question, they were traditionally made of spring steel, forged and ground.

janvanruth · Feb 11, 2016

Greenwud said:
Interesting- I once attended the estate sale of a Dutchman who had immigrated to New Zealand after the war, as many did. He was a brick mason by trade, and had brought six or eight over and never used them up- I can imagine what he would endure on a job site with such odd tools and an accent.
I have one from this sale- it is much lighter than an English Tyzack, shorter and thinner; clearly the usage is different too as it lacks the steel heel on the handle and blade thickness at the widest part of the blade- no cutting bricks. All forge welded or forged in one piece.

In regard to the OPs original question, they were traditionally made of spring steel, forged and ground.

Probably a trowel not used for bricklaying as such, but for slathering trass morter onto walls predominantly in cellars to make them waterproof.

stephen thomas · Feb 11, 2016

I moved to carpentry by trade, but have spent time on walls slinging mortar, mostly block, some brick. My HS masonry trades teacher in the late 60's was Richard T Kreh.

Masonry Skills (hardcover): Richard T. Kreh: 9780827371781: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: advanced masonary skills: Books

(His brother, Lefty Kreh, once tried to teach me to cast a fly rod. That was less successful

)

Anyway, as most real hand tools are, a trowel is a subtly complex thing. It is tempered spring steel as others note. The blade is tapered in thickness from the heel to the point. The blade has a slight, but important curvature, downward, from the heel to the point. As has been stated, the heel of the traditional tool is used for cutting. The blade is a forging, and the stem used to be an itegral part of the forging itself, or forge welded on. I don't suppose the welding process for attaching the stem is critical, so long as the joint is full penetration, and the weld is heat-treatable. My guess would be that absent forge welding, Oxy acetylene would be the best process by a skilled welder.

Trowels are essential; especially in the type of building done in most of the rest of the world (outside the USA where 2 x 4, now 2 x 6 framing rules). How much does a quality trowel cost in Africa in terms of a days wages for the type person you would be training?

If the purpose of your program is to make jobs, long term that would suggest skills training, then why would you avoid developing the ability to make a sophisticated product that still relies mostly on hand skills and human interface to create it as an instrument?
I'm guessing you are teaching people with minimal resources, not minimal brains & ambition.

smt

Who knows about brick trowels? (Alloy and manufacturing method)

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