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Work holding - small, very adjustable indexer type of thing wanted

Zahnrad Kopf

Diamond
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Location
Tropic of Milwaukee
Ideally, I would want a Stainless construction Dividing Head. I have actually wanted to make one for some time but "time" never seems to finds its way to me so that will remain a back burner project for a while to come, yet. Short of that, I'm looking for a smaller ( meaning a 6" cube or smaller, leaning more toward "smaller" ) indexer/divider that can be angled in more than one plane, if possible. Collets would be best. ER and 5C on top of the list, but I'm willing to look at 4C and others, as well.

Now, I have several options but I am hoping to find _something_ that will allow me to do this without cobbling too many bits and pieces together, at once. I have several dividing heads and among them some smaller Ellis ones that have the typical 1.5" diameter threaded nose. I could always make an ER32/40 nose piece for one of those and be done with it, using the Dividing Head somewhat sacrificially but I would at least like to _try_ to avoid sacrificing one. ( corrosive environment )

I have a standard Rockwell UniVise that could mount some manner of indexer spindle in it. ( making it like the first attached picture. ) But I don't know what that would actually be called to know what to look for... Something like the second attached picture would likely work, too but they seem to be pricey when one finds them and I don't know that I'd want to buy one to wreck it. ( corrosive environment )

I could even put something on a Sine Plate if I needed to, but I hesitate to do that for the same reasons as the Dividing Head.

Basically, I need to be able to tilt in at least one plane ( preferably two ) and also be able to index. I'm fine with modifying or making things to get something the final few steps that if that something already exists but is limited in some small way, but I don't have the time to tackle my ideal of an actual Stainless construction Dividing Head right now.

Any ideas? Thanks.
 

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I've seen a 5C "universal" index head with 2 or 3 axes of rotation and indexing on one of them. But it was an antique. Never seen one new.

The dividing head style, as in your 2nd photo, is much stouter than the nested-gimbals or Univise type gizmo, but the stainless requirement makes me think this is for EDM where rigidity and firm lock-up is not so important.

Also not stainless, but cheap-ish and possibly quick, how about taking a cheap 5C spindex and milling/turning the base off the indexing tube, then mounting the indexing tube in a stainless trunnion (simple bolted split clamp design) for tilt, that trunnion possibly being mounted on a swivel base for another axis. When the spindex gets eaten up, cut down another one to fit the trunnion bore.
 
maybe you could use the necessary parts from your t/c grinder, that is gathering dust in a dark corner?
 
#2 for sfriedberg's suggestion of a sacrificial cheap 5C holder cut down to fit suitable gimbal mounts. For small numbers ignore the cast in vernier and use your own notch plates.

If you needed full index plate dividing capability a bolt on gear and worm carrier assembly rather after the fashion of the Geo. H. Thomas Versatile Dividing Head isn't a completely unreasonable amount of work. As it uses a standard, albeit precision, gear rather than a worm wheel all the gubbins can be done in stainless so it ought to survive several transfers from eaten up spindexers to new ones. I did the preliminary feasibility outline design for such a modification to a Chinee spindexer many years ago and recall concluding that iwas all perfectly practical with no roadblocks. Then I lucked into a proper divding head at the right price and place so went no further.

If you don't need full on index capability but do need to handle "any number" the fixed indexing block could be replaced by a suitably drilled gear, or part gear, driven by a worm with suitably graduated knob to cover the difference between index steps. Setting for any position then becomes a matter of selecting the right Hole A plus Knob Scale Reading B pair. Tedious if you are doing lots but acceptable for onsey, twosey work. At least with computers its quick and easy to speadsheet out the Hole A, Scale B combinations.

Clive
 
Aren't our own Mr Newbould's devices available in stainless?

The Newbould Indexer - Imperial Newbould, Inc.

Got a nosebleed looking at the prices, but they have it all: pressurized to keep fluids out of the guts, and SS for corrosion resistance.

Maybe Don Bailley/Suburban would make a special of one of their items in SS? My Master Grind easily fits the envelop. Just needs some gimbles or mount on a coumpound sine plate.

Per Clive's note above, just for ideas, Elgin made a nice little convertible 5c unit. It had factory swivel/angle plates besides the one shown to do vertical tilting as well. Or mount the base shown, sideways to a right angle iron.

elgindivide1.jpg


elgindivide3.jpg


elgindivide5.jpg


A standard Hardinge Dividing head will fit in your 6 x 6 x 6 box with about a 1/4" to spare on all sides, except the spindle nose protrudes about 3/8" beyond in whatever direction it is aimed. Kind of hard to consider putting in use where it will be dissolved, though. :)

Now you've got me wanting to take time off and make such a device myself!

Good Luck!

smt
 
Given the small size of the Ellis and Univise I would ass-u-me the work would be rather tiny. Can you simply clamp a smaller head like the Ellis in a swivel vise? I've done so enough that I keep thinking of finding a swivel vise base to fit directly to my DH.
 
maybe you could use the necessary parts from your t/c grinder, that is gathering dust in a dark corner?

dian - The Cincinnati work head is FAR too large for this and greatly exceeds my asked for envelope. :) ( see attached pic with 6" rule ) Additionally, it would be a crime to subject it to such a harsh environ.


I've seen a 5C "universal" index head with 2 or 3 axes of rotation and indexing on one of them. But it was an antique. Never seen one new.

Doesn't have to be new. Just available to me at reasonable cost. :) Those are some what I am seeing in my head too, though.

Also not stainless, but cheap-ish and possibly quick, how about taking a cheap 5C spindex and milling/turning the base off the indexing tube, then mounting the indexing tube in a stainless trunnion (simple bolted split clamp design) for tilt, that trunnion possibly being mounted on a swivel base for another axis. When the spindex gets eaten up, cut down another one to fit the trunnion bore.

... and ...

#2 for sfriedberg's suggestion of a sacrificial cheap 5C holder cut down to fit suitable gimbal mounts. For small numbers ignore the cast in vernier and use your own notch plates.


I really like this idea and am ashamed to have not thought of it myself by now. This is a viable fall-back option. It's not elegant, and a little bigger than desired, but fully viable I think. Thank you both.


If you needed full index plate dividing capability a bolt on gear and worm carrier assembly rather after the fashion of the Geo. H. Thomas Versatile Dividing Head isn't a completely unreasonable amount of work.


This is as close to perfect as I could hope for and exactly what I have been wanting to do in Stainless! Long term - I wonder if I could source just the prints for that? I'm lazy :)


Aren't our own Mr Newbould's devices available in stainless?
The Newbould Indexer - Imperial Newbould, Inc.
Got a nosebleed looking at the prices, but they have it all: pressurized to keep fluids out of the guts, and SS for corrosion resistance.


I was hoping you'd chime in, Stephen. Yes, RJ's WireOne ( or another ) would suffice for now and be adaptable to my end goal, but I cannot justify the purchase of one of those for this, at the moment. I enjoy speaking with him, reading his posts here, and have much respect for his accomplishments as well as the quality of his work and products. Just can't spend that price.

Maybe Don Bailley/Suburban would make a special of one of their items in SS? My Master Grind easily fits the envelop. Just needs some gimbles or mount on a coumpound sine plate.


I have called and written and asked Don about this a few times in the past. Didn't seem too interested in it. A mini-Master would likely fit ( or be easily adapted to ) the UniVise but then we're right back to spending $800 to fsck something up...


Per Clive's note above, just for ideas, Elgin made a nice little convertible 5c unit. It had factory swivel/angle plates besides the one shown to do vertical tilting as well. Or mount the base shown, sideways to a right angle iron.

That one's not too bad. I'm hoping to keep it a slight bit smaller, yet.

Now you've got me wanting to take time off and make such a device myself! Good Luck! smt

Thank you!

I've got a feeling that hacking a spindex is the quick and dirty way out for the immediate need, but I'm really hoping to find another, better solution.
 

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That one's not too bad. I'm hoping to keep it a slight bit smaller, yet.

I'm thinking it may be hard to get under 5" long (well, maybe down to 4") in the spindle axis with a 5c and closer.

But ER collets could get a lot shorter.

The index plates and gear on the Elgin are ~5-1/4" dia. The worm is 3 lead, wheel is 120T (so 40:1)
IOW, everything could be miniaturized quite a bit including say a single lead worm.

smt
 
I'm thinking it may be hard to get under 5" long (well, maybe down to 4") in the spindle axis with a 5c and closer.
But ER collets could get a lot shorter.
The index plates and gear on the Elgin are ~5-1/4" dia. The worm is 3 lead, wheel is 120T (so 40:1)
IOW, everything could be miniaturized quite a bit including say a single lead worm.
smt

I should explain... This is indeed a WEDM concern. So the length isn't a terrible issue ( a mild concern ) and the index plates would be hanging out back, thus out of concern. But the bits that hang out in space and in the work area would optimally be as small as feasible. Hence the Thomas DH looking very attractive. :) ( the Westbury, too ) More betterer, clear as mud? :)
 
"This is as close to perfect as I could hope for and exactly what I have been wanting to do in Stainless! Long term - I wonder if I could source just the prints for that? I'm lazy "

Re: the GHT Versatile Dividing head.

Martin Models In the US of A, casts these and sells kits, along with the GHT book ( Workshop Techniques - G H Thomas) which has the drawings and other build details. So yeah, the drawings are available.

If you do not mind the building time, I suspect that you could always carve the main components from bar stock, esp. if you have 4th axis capability on a CNC.

Another potential avenue to explore, may be to contact them, and see if they cast any stainless, and if they would run you one or two sets in stainless rather than whatever they are using. I suspect they are running a induction furnace, rather than a direct heat style, and they may actually have stainless in their repertoire. Asking is cheap!

I used to have a picture of an elegant little dividing head , collected from an ebay auction years back, that used either WW or D size watchmaker/Instrument lathe collets. Sadly that and many other filed away ideas went down hard with a dead hard drive.

Anyway... some thoughts.

Cheers
Trev
 


so now you have to get it smaller. its 10" square. how? i dont know. just an idea.
 


so now you have to get it smaller. its 10" square. how? i dont know. just an idea.




LOL! Dian, that is awesome! Well done, Sir.
:bowdown: :bowdown: It looks much better than I had imagined. Hahaha! I would personally flip the indexing plate and nut around, allowing one to have the smaller end in the work area, but that certainly looks to work the treat. Nicely done, Dian. :)
 
How about one of the Pratt Whitney dividing heads for there 1803 bench mill? They take a 4PN collet, the side with the disc might be a little bigger than 6", maybe it is 7".... The other sides are less than your 6". Quality is outstanding. There had been one on eBay for months that had not sold..... But it is not there now? Collets are hard to find unless you score a set..... I did, fractions by 1/64ths and metrics.

I have never understood why all dividing heads weren't set up for collets?.... It makes them so handy.

Anyway, scroll through this thread and you will come to pictures of mine...... The thread was about the case...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ney-3c-mill-dividing-head-wooden-case-247814/
 
As far as the stainless index head, have you looked at the wireone?

Yes, he did, above.


Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
Aren't our own Mr Newbould's devices available in stainless?
The Newbould Indexer - Imperial Newbould, Inc.
Got a nosebleed looking at the prices, but they have it all: pressurized to keep fluids out of the guts, and SS for corrosion resistance.

I was hoping you'd chime in, Stephen. Yes, RJ's WireOne ( or another ) would suffice for now and be adaptable to my end goal, but I cannot justify the purchase of one of those for this, at the moment. I enjoy speaking with him, reading his posts here, and have much respect for his accomplishments as well as the quality of his work and products. Just can't spend that price.

:D

Yesterday I did not even know the word goniometer (or would probably have thought it related to STD's :eek:

Now I need a few!

smt
 








 
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