D.C.Area Machine Shop Auction - 12/15/07 - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    No problem from my seat in the peanut gallery-- I did take note of the difference mentioned between an individual antique machine for sale and a general auction-- I'm not so sure everyone else that may have run across this thread would make the distinction between the two.

    The main point of contention seems to be old machines as compaired to really old machines. I think it's really a matter of perception--while one member might consider a 20-30 year old machine an antique others would just think it's used.

    I guess any machine older than us would be considered an antique--That said--I'm 58 while others here are older and a bunch are younger--It becomes a matter of viewpoint. Someone in their 30's might consider a machine built 10 years before they were born an antique.

    I hope we all learned a few things in this thread and hopefully nobody got their feelings out of joint or their feathers ruffled--Life's way too short and hopefully we can all enjoy the remaining portion with a smile on our faces.

    I'd like to think everyone here would be at ease in a face to face situation--The internet adds variables that aren't a problem in normal conversations. This is common across the www and not just here.Without writing a book, it isn't always easy to determine a persons feelings or meanings in just a few lines.

  2. #42
    art_deco_machine Guest

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    I have thought about the zen of this situation, and I think we need to get back to first causes. What is the primary goal here?

    Is it:
    1) To rescue from the scrappers every piece of machine tool possible by finding a home for it.
    or
    2) To have a little private club or network that seeks out the best deals for each other.

    I would conclude that if your goal is number 1 above, that, unless you are able to go to the auction and bid on every item, and out bid the scrappers, and pay for everything and take it all home, and put it under a roof, then you will want someone else to be there to take the stuff you can't take or don't want. Otherwise, some will go to the scrappers and be destroyed.

    Or would you prefer that only you, the auctioneer, and a scrapper showed up at the auction so that you only had to pay scrap prices? Now, if you can bid on everything there, and pay for it all, then I wouldn't fault you for it. (I know a man that did that once.) In fact, I would feel happy for you: I would feel happier for you than I would for me because I don't think I would want to do that, even if I could.

  3. #43
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    art deco, I can tell from your post that part of the disagreement here is that many of us have very different perspectives on this depending on what we are after. I presume you are mostly looking for screamin deals on older machines barely above scrap price, where there is some comptetion but not much...and not much at stake really if you don't get them no big deal.

    But I am looking for "deals" on later nicer machines...mostly CNC....where just one person knowing about an auction that he wouldn't have otherwise known about, can make a difference in whether I get that machine or not, with often tens of thousands of dollars at stake in the outcome.

    The auction in DC is sort of "in between" those two extremes. There is nothing at that auction of interest to me, but I can relate to the annoyance from those that didn't want the auction blabbed about here (to members but mostly to tens of thousands of folks lurking in the shadows), hence my stand on the issue.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    There is nothing at that auction of interest to me,
    Then you are not a damaged party.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by art_deco_machine View Post
    Then you are not a damaged party.
    Very true. How is that relevant to the discussion ?

  6. #46
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    A few more posts and I'll move this to all time favorites.

  7. #47
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    I really don't get this thread..... pages of folks trying to figure out what is right...... it seems to me that what is the right thing to do (as post an auction) totally depends on what your agenda is as in a dealer trying to make a living, a bottom feeder trying to buy rust to fill a barn, a collector trying to own things that are cooler than what is in most museums, a scrap dealer trying to buy the most iron for the least money, someone who wants to some respect for a life time collection of iron or a fine state of the art shop......or whatever...... so it would be impossible for anybody to totally right or wrong on this. And with 24,000 plus folks here we'll never agree.... so do what you want.... post or not to post?...... you can't make everybody happy all the time.


    Here is how I feel about it...... I would rather see sales posted...... keep in mind I'm not a dealer and I can see why someone like Don would disagree with me..... I feel if it your day to run into auction idiots, it will happen anyway...... if it is your day to walk home with the goods for a tenth of what you were planning on bidding it is going to happen...... here is what I don't want to see, a shop full of good stuff, modern or antique, sell too cheap...... if that trend were to keep happening it would eventually devalue all the stuff you have in your shop or sitting on the sales room floor. And one last thought...... how many times have you met someone at an auction that you either did business with or became friends with later?...... the more interested folks attending a sale.... the better the chance.

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    Hey!...What's wrong with a barn full of rust? I resemble that remark!

  9. #49
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    Here is how I feel about it...... I would rather see sales posted..
    Before I respond to that, are you saying all sales ? You really don't see the difference in the DC sale that started this whole thread, and posting about a true antique machinery auction or individual sale ?


    I feel if it your day to run into auction idiots, it will happen anyway...... if it is your day to walk home with the goods for a tenth of what you were planning on bidding it is going to happen
    Industrial fatalism ? A new religion I'd not heard of. So the supreme being not only deals in life and death, but plays games with machine purchases as well, eh ? Or perhaps you go all the way back to Roman or Greek Mythology and believe Vulcan or Hephaestus are directly involved

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    I work pretty close to the auction location. When one of the shops I work w/ told me about it figured I'd go. It appeared to not be well advertised, I could go to the preview over a long lunch hour during work time. I go to maybe 1 auction a year, and stuff around here always goes sky high. As an example, I've been looking for a 3 ton arbor press. One pops up on ebay a couple months ago, a rusty Dake 3 ton. Cool, close to work, I'll bid a high $150, give it a coat of paint. And my quest for a 3 ton press will be over. Well it ended at over $350, IIRC.

    So when I saw this auction posted here, and later at two other locations I new it was over. There would be no bargains, every thing would be high. Folks around here (that live off govt spending) have real deep pockets and there is a pretty large HSM population. So after seeing it posted here and two other places I said piss on it. It would be more than likely a waste of time. So I decided not to go.

    So if the auctions aren't nearby to me, I don't care if they are posted. But don't post the ones that are taking place in my back yard.

    Did anyone go to it?
    Last edited by morsetaper2; 12-16-2007 at 03:06 PM.

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    Mil.... as to the difference in sales... yes, I see the difference.... the sales are as different as the interests of those reading this. I don't mind if any sale is posted, as long as it is in the right place here.... so sales with old stuff are fine here in the antique section... sales with modern stuff in the classifieds section. Sure I might say "oh $hit" if a sale I was planning on attending was listed all over the place..... but if something is advertised even in some small way that I found out or read about it, why would I ever think other people with similar interests wouldn't find the same information. I think the only ones that somehow have inside information that no one else on the planet would have, would and should use it for better causes than a tool auction....... To me, the listing is one of many factors that may cause someone to attend... sure the more people that see an ad the more possible folks might show up but there are so many other factors that come into play as to just who is really going to be at any given sale on any given day...... distance to travel, amount of cash on hand to spend, weather, other sales that same day, family stuff, work stuff, health, women, space in the shop, a flat tire, a traffic tie up, help moving what you might buy, a broken alarm clock that made some one sleep in and the list goes on...... so the fact that it is listed somewhere is just one of many factors that contribute to the finial outcome of the day....... with each item in a sale there are usually just a few serious bidders... in the end it is down to two.... anything that could effect either of them may play just as important factor as a listing posted somewhere..... just because it was posted does not automatically mean the your nemesis will be there.

    I think as you well know, no matter how many auctions you have been too, you never know what is going to happen till it is over. Also I don't care what the other folks at a sale do.... I'll bid what I want too, and hope I win but if I get beat out it just means someone wanted the item for more than I wanted to pay..... and they may have still wanted if I had bid twice as much. I went to sale about two years ago in Las Vegas where I went head to head against an "irrational drunk with money".... I got totally shut out.... logic and reason just didn't seem to be in the room..... hey, what can you say? $hit happens...... the next day against another bidder I bid 20X the high estimate for an item..... and lost. Sure shocked me (and the client I was bidding for).... but it sure made the sales room awfully quiet...

    I try to not to worry about what I can't control...... if I did I would have to have a group of thugs take care of the competition.....

    About a supreme being or something..... too much for me to contemplate.... I just know that in all things.... some days are better than others...... I don't even try to think of why.


    I do completely understand you wanting to attend a sale where you get to buy everything you desire for cheap because no one is there.... it means you make more money and get to retire earlier and sail on a bigger boat..... but the realistic odds of that happening are about like winning the lottery..... which we ALL would love to do and sail away on beautiful water in a lovely boat with.....

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivett608 View Post
    I do completely understand you wanting to attend a sale where you get to buy everything you desire for cheap because no one is there.... it means you make more money and get to retire earlier and sail on a bigger boat..... but the realistic odds of that happening are about like winning the lottery..... which we ALL would love to do and sail away on beautiful water in a lovely boat with.....
    Having attended way more machine tool auctions than you, I find the above statement amazingly strange. If anyone knows the "reality" of auctions, it's me. And the reality is that of course there is never an auction where "no one" shows up but me, and never will be. That's not what this is about.

    Reality is one extra person can make a difference....a huge difference...like $50,000 difference in one instance. So to repeat, I'm not talking about "no one" showing up, but just talking about not maximizing the sheer numbers that do show by unnecessary free advertising of the aucton on forums like this.

    But to tell you the truth, I'm just sick of arguing about it. I mean if someone as bright as you can come up with such strange ramblings on the subject and completely ignore my previous statements about five real life examples of where interenet auction blabbing did effect my bottom line (or did you read that and think I was lying ??) then it's just hopeless and I give up.

  13. #53
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    I agree that you know more about machine tool auctions than I..... my comments are more about auctions in general and my experience is in dealing with art and antiques..... but people can act like crazy people no matter what auction they are at...... I'm also joking about the "no one shows up".... I know it just takes that one person to bid on the item you went for to ruin your day as in my example.

    I'm also not arguing with you..... My opinion is I (and I mean me) don't care if a sale is listed because I assume there will be stiff competition there anyway... of course it makes me even happier if there is not. I can not worry about what I have no control over as in someone else chattering about a sale.

    I totally agree that you do not like any additional information other than the ads the auction house paid for out there, especially on the PM. I am NOT saying information should be posted.... I'm saying I don't care if it is..... you do care....... you have good reason to care because it has effected you in the past. I hope you see our difference and I'm sure I would start to see things your way after a few times where I knew my auction foe showed up because of a specific reason such as it was blabbed about, especially on my own site....

    And I really don't think you ever have to worry about me posting about any auctions you would have any interest in..... that's what private emails are for.

  14. #54
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    Gentlemen,

    I find this discussion amusing because I have been on both sides.

    I am still a little unhappy with Rivett608 over the Shaw Auction but I didn't call him a" moron " I could appreciate his position but that doesn't change the fact that I missed a once in a lifetime opportunity especially after I was encouraged to join a little niche group he is member of. I was sadly reminded of what I already knew that there is always a group within a group. To add insult to injury I have watched rare items listed on ebay by dealers who did attend but didn't know what they bought or that they should have been included with other rare machines at the same auction.

    On the flip side I ragged an English buddy for posting an ebay auction here for a 608 that was improperly listed that was close enough for me to buy. The lathe sold for probably five times the reserve and way more than I was willing to spend at the time.
    Partially because of this auction the Rivett yahoo group was formed and I later met the buyer of that particular lathe and ended up with several of the attachments I was interested in.

    In the grand scheme of things we all have our day in the sun and there is more than enough to go around.

    I hope antiquemac isn't upset or discouraged from posting here. By his own admission he is not a machinist but a tool collector and I for one always enjoyed his postings here and I am sure he just thought he was doing members a favor.

    Rick

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    "In the grand scheme of things we all have our day in the sun and there is more than enough to go around.

    I hope antiquemac isn't upset or discouraged from posting here. By his own admission he is not a machinist but a tool collector and I for one always enjoyed his postings here and I am sure he just thought he was doing members a favor."

    I agree with both of these statements, there is plenty of metal to go around..... maybe in some cases even more than in the past because you don't see as many young folks buying.... the prices on antique machinists tools are down due to lack of competition.... and Antiquemac was thinking he was helping someone....

    And I'm sorry about the Shaw thing.... just did what I was asked..... I should have been there too to help keep the ebay vultures away from the goodies... but then they have to eat too.

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    Rivett608,

    Apology accepted, after all who needs two Goyens ?

    And you probably saved my relationship with my better half,
    She certainly regrets not taking me up on the offer to remodel her kitchen and has a constant reminder when sitting in my den ---

    Rick

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    In the interest of trying to prove or disprove these theories, did anyone actually go to the auction?

  18. #58
    art_deco_machine Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by maynah View Post
    Hey!...What's wrong with a barn full of rust? I resemble that remark!
    I resemble the 'bottom feeder' remark. Mostly I just get the stuff no one else wanted.

    I have decided that I am not going to post any more auctions on here; until after they have ended.

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    Peter's remark is very true, the preservation of machinery is more important than who gets the best deal. But I see nothing at this auction which is (was) in danger of being scrapped.
    Most of it is modern, and desirable to a much wider audience than the Antique forum. The fact that it's in DC (a seller's market) means that the old stuff (which probably wouldn't sell for more than scrap in other parts of the northeast) probably did in this case. This is why I don't understand why the auction was posted here.
    There's no hard rule about posting auctions (unless Don makes one). Each one is a different situation and they have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. I personally wouldn't post an auction with this much new machinery, because I know there are guys (dealers and shop owners) who make their living in this business. Getting a better deal on something might really help them out. I don't hesitate so much to post auctions for antique machinery, because it mostly goes to hobbyists and collectors (like myself). They aren't depending on their hobby to pay the bills.
    Andy

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    I think I will post all I can find. Milacron, FWIW we don't even go to many auctions anymore to buy inventory. Good mfg business means too many bidders. We find most of our inventory comes from plants selling one - ten pieces ata time and our advertising.

    I also think all auctions should be advertised as much as possible. Whether is be here on the forum, on machinetools.com, trade pubs, etc..... Tell the people about it. The more the merrier in my opinion. If a piece goes for more than I wanted to spend, maybe I should figure on spending more.

    my 2 cents worth.


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