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Is the sale of "Gunsmiting" Lathes now regulated ?

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
I was looking at the Northern Tool (formerly Norther Hydraulics) 2012 master catalog. The catalog lists two lathes; a small bench top "hobby" lathe, and a larger engine lathe. The smaller lathe is described as being useful for making gun parts (or something on that order, with the word "gun" mentioned). The bigger lathe has nothing special to recommend it, another Chinese import, but is specifically listed as a "Gunsmith Lathe". No mention of a larger spindle bore or "cat head" type chuck on the outboard end of the spindle for barrel work, nor is a taper attachment fitted. Not that I would buy a lathe from Northern, let alone a Chinese import, but the rest of the listings got me curious. In boldface type were the words: "Not for sale in MA, CA, AK, (and I forget which other states)." Have the lawmakers now decided to regulate the sale of any machine tools which are specifically listed as being used in the manufacture or repair of firearms ?

It strikes me that this was bound to happen. If they regulate the sale of certain types of guns and ammunition, have they now decided to crack down on anyone and anything capable of making or repairing a firearm ? What next: make anyone capable of thinking, designing, and running machine tools also register ?
 
Well the one they sell as a gunsmiths lathe is fine as a hobby machine and could be used to do barrel work in a pinch. But it is far to light and short to be put into a gunsmiths shop. At least any of the ones I have worked in. I really don't know how they come up with the term gunsmith lathe these days. I think they just throw a dart. The 16x40s and the 18x60 look nice but they are a little pricey for most gunsmiths. They probably don't ship to those states because their carriers don't run there. I'm sure if you contracted your own carrier at your own expense they would let it out the door. The tools and machines that gunsmiths use are the same tools and machines that are used in every machine shop. They are not regulated in North America and I have never heard of them being regulated anywhere else in the world.

Hammers are not regulated either, nor are poky poo sticks, intent and misuse make them a weapon. The same as a firearm.
 
Any chance someone in those states already represents/sells the particular machine so they can't compete with them?, or safety requirement issue, wouldn't surprise me with california.
 
I was looking at the Northern Tool (formerly Norther Hydraulics) 2012 master catalog............

Not to throw water on a nicely burning paranoid conspiracy in the making, but if you look at the far more capable Jet lathes on their web site, none of them have a shipping restriction. The ONLY two lathes that do are both from Shop Fox. Probably has to do with prior agreements with retailers in those states for protected sales territories.

Go up on YouTube and do some searching on Pakistani gunsmiths, with some metal, some handtools and a ton of patience you can make a firearm.

Steve
 
Thanks for the replies. The truth is I was probably just reading between the lines when I saw the "not for sale in the following states..." I know with air compressors, some states require the air receiver tanks to be built to ASME code, and as a result, the same sort of note appears on the catalog listing (not for sale in the following states, or check local regulations). As for lathes, I am well aware of what is out there. I would never buy a lathe from Northern. As for gunsmithing lathes, I've always thought a lathe for gunsmithing work had to have a larger spindle bore with the capacity to pass a barrel thru it, along with a taper attachment. I've never been impressed with imported lathes, and have a South Bend heavy 10" and South Bend light 10" in my shop. I am making room for a 13" x 42" Leblond "round head" Regal with taper attachment.

To digress: in the 1960's, I was a student at Brooklyn Tech HS. We all took machine shop classes. I also was shooting in an armory in a DCM program for kids. I used to take my .22 in a case on the subways when I was about 12 or 13 to shoot it on the smallbore range at the armory where the DCM program was. One day, in HS, another student asked if I wanted to buy an autoload .22 from him. He had a Marlin to sell. He brought it to school, wrapped in newspapers, on the subway (no need of school busses, and kids attending Brooklyn Tech HS came from all 5 boroughs of the city). We took the rifle out in machine shop class and our shop teacher ( a former machinist) looked it over. He pronounced it a good rifle. We used to bring all sorts of things to school to work on in the machine shop classes if we had the time. Some kids brought old rifles needing parts made, the kind of things that were in a closet at home. One kid brought a basket case British motorcycle to HS, in pieces, via the subway. He got it together and some of us helped out by making parts for it. That is how I got started riding motorcycles.

In college, I worked p/t in machine shops. A classmate asked if I could put a barrel on a 98 Mauser action, a war souveneir some relative had in a closet. I did that job, and soon was building barrelled Mauser actions. I found a 1903A3 Springfield barreled action in a garbage barrel at college. The ROTC had attempted to make a training rifle out of it, and then tossed the barrelled action. All I could salvage was the receiver. I built a sporting rifle on that, which I have to this day. We used to buy Douglas barrel blanks, and I used to machine and thread them to fit the receivers, then turn whatever taper was desired and crown the muzzle. Another friend was an actual working gunsmith, and he took care of chambering and headspacing. I carried barrelled actions and assembled rifles on the subways in soft cases or simply wrapped in newspaper and never thought anything of it. I'd bring rifle parts to the machine shops where I worked p/t and never had a problem working on a "government job" on my own time. Times were very different.

I am reminded of the events surrounding the birth of the Nation of Israel. Israel was embargoed and the sale or shipment of arms, munitions and war materiel to Israel was prohibited by various nations (and probably the UN). What was not forbidden was the sale and shipment of machine tools. People went to the used machine tool dealers in NYC and elsewhere and bought lathes, mills, drills, screw machines, presses, and more. It was shipped to Israel without any problems. Prior to Israel gaining independence, when Israel was under British rule, there was close inspection and restrictions on anything being imported. Despite those restrictions, machine tools were brought in. Those used machine tools were put to work making small arms and munitions.

Using Israel as an example of what happens when there is an embargo, but the populace has the brains and skills and gets hold of machine tools, I wondered if the lawmakers were trying to close what they saw as another loophole. I am probably just paranoid, as we seem to be on an ever increasing spiral of increased scrutiny, increased regulation and increased restrictions.

On another extreme, I joke that someday all machinists, toolmakers and engineers- anyone capable of thinking, designing, or building anything that might be used in a destructive or criminal way- will have to register. I am reminded of the events surrounding the birth of the steam engine. Britain realized that the steam engine was the key to what was to become the "Industrial Revolution". As long as they held the "secret" of the steam engine, they would be the industrial and economic power. Initially, the exportation of steam engines as well as the drawings to build them, was forbidden. What could not be restricted was people's minds. People who had the knowledge to design and build steam engines emigrated with the knowledge, and countries like the USA became industrial powerhouses. I joke that unless "they" can control our minds, "they" will never gain a total degree of regulation and control.
 
Shop Fox is a line that the owner of Grizzly came up with as a "wholesale" line- you see, Grizzly products are ONLY sold thru Grizzly, at stores or online. He wanted a line of products he could wholesale to other stores, and he wanted them differentiated from Grizzly- so he came up with Shop Fox, which are white, rather than green, and have a different name.
He wholesales Shop Fox to many different retailers around the country.

My guess is that it is, indeed, prior agreements for marketing territory, not any nefarious government plot, that dictates where Northern can and cant sell Shop Fox.
 
Oh, and as far as Israel building its armaments industry after WW2- it was a lot more organized, and sophisticated, than just "people" going to used machinery dealers- there was a conscious program, both by the Israeli government, (which at that point was the independence group Haganah) and Jews in America, to funnel surplus machinery to Israel.
Historically, Jews were forbidden to own land and engage in many occupations thruout Europe for centuries, so they often could do nothing else but be travelling vendors, and one of the few categories open to them was junkman, buying and collecting scrap metal and selling it to blacksmiths and jewelers and coppersmiths.

When they came to the USA, they naturally did this as well, since it required no land and no startup capital. Hence, for many many years, the core of the scrap metal business, and, later, the used machinery business, in the USA, has historically been Jews. They were the ones who bought all the scrapped machinery to make armaments after WW2, and they intentionally set aside certain machines from scrapping, and consolidated those machines and sent them to Israel, using their shipping connections.

This was coordinated by a group of wealthy and connected US jews, called the Sonneborn group.
They also bought and shipped to Israel a lot of actual weapons, thru third party front companies in Latin America and Eastern Europe. This was a very sophisticated, well run operation, not random in any way.
http://www.palestine-studies.org/enakba/military/Calhoun, Arming David.pdf

At the same time, the late Al Schwimmer, a Los Angeles engineer, was buying scrap military planes, cutting them up, shipping them to Israel, and reassembling them into the Israeli air force- http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=224857

In some cases the US government looked the other way, but in most cases, they never knew what was going on til after it was over.
Interestingly enough, Jewish mobsters in NYC were very heavily involved, as they controlled the docks at that time.
 
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England also strove like crazy to prevent the export of any spinning, weaving or mill equipment. They had a lock on the manufacture
of fabric for quite some time. No prints, plans or equipment was premitted to be sold overseas.

Then a young mechanic memorized the details of the equipment, and america's mills were started.

Joe there's also a great SF story about handicapping. Anyone with more than average abilities has, by law, to be
equipped with handicap devices to bring all citizens to the same level of abilities.

Folks with good eyesight have to wear distorting glasses, strong folks have to carry weights around, smart
folks have to wear earphones that produce random distracting loud noises.
 
Ries:

I am aware of the organized effort to get arms into Israel despite the embargo of 1948. As a matter of fact, a distant cousin on my mother's side of the family was involved in it. He was a union boilermaker. As such, he wangled things so he got assigned to go weld cleats to secure deck cargoes on merchant vessels tied up at the Brooklyn piers. More specifically, he got the call when there were cleats to be burned off and welded on decks of vessels heading to ports such as Naples, Italy, or Trieste or similarly located ports. My cousin had a Ford touring car which was his "gun delivery" car. He had all the seats removed, and just a small jumpseat to sit on when he drove it. He had repowered it with a Lincoln engine. The front springs were beefed up, and the rear axle was blocked solid to the frame rails. Being a touring car, he had curtains on the side and rear windows.

My cousin had a brother who was a Captain on the NYPD. The Captain was in the chain of things. The way my cousin explained it to me was that when NYPD police rousted a punk or raided some illegal enterprise, they might confiscate weapons. If not tied directly to the commission of a crime, the weapons were turned over to the "property office", supposedly to be logged in and stored until such time as a disposal was ordered. The police in the property office looked over what was turning up in the way of weapons, and if it was anything usable and good, it was "lost". Stuff like the usual "pimp guns" (nickel plated .32 auto pistols with mother of pearl grips) was kept in the property office as was anything that was an odd caliber, shot out, worn, or just un-usable. A lot of war souveneirs such as Walthers and Lugers were turning up, and these were diverted.

The diverted firearms were taken to an automotive machine shop. There, the mechanics cleaned and inspected each gun. Each gun was test fired accross a nearby railroad cut, into the opposite side's slope. No one noticed the gunfire or reported it, even within NYC limits. If the guns were found to be sound, they were cleaned, preserved in cosmoline, and tagged with make, model, caliber. The guns were wrapped in preservative paper and placed in wooden crates. The crates piled up in the automotive machine shop. When word came in of a ship docking in Brooklyn, heading for one of the ports en route to Israel, the next phase began. My cousin got the call, and he drove his gun running car to the shop. The car was packed with crated guns. My cousin drove to the Brooklyn pier where the vessel was docked. His orders were to leave the keys in the car, get set up to do his work on the deck of the vessel, and not look over the side or stop working until done. My cousin told me he had a pass to get on the pier, and the cops would wave him in. He'd park the Ford and get his shield and his other tools- a welding "whip" with his "stinger", can of electrode, grinder, slag pick and wire brush. He'd get his stuff handlined up to the deck and there would be a Lincoln gas driven welder and cutting outfit on the pier, hoses and leads already strung up to the deck for him. My cousin said he'd just go to work, "washing" off old deck cleats or chocks, welding new pad eyes or cleats to secure some deck cargo. He took his time. All the while, the longshoremen were working cargo. When he was done, he'd get his stuff back down onto the pier, and get into his Ford. It had been unloaded and was right where he'd left it.

The crates of guns were loaded aboard the vessel by the longshoremen. The vessel made port somewhere like Naples, Italy, and the crates were transferred by longshoremen there to other vessels heading to Israel. All the crates got through.

Years later as an engineer, I had occasion to run into a boilermaker who was a Yugoslavian immigrant. He was originally a merchant marine engineer. He and I got to talking, and he told me he had been an engineer on ships running from Trieste to Haifa in 1947-48. He told me about getting the crated guns aboard. He recalled one night, being offered a good new suit of clothes for cooperating. He told me that the trans shipping of the crates was a regular occurance, and the crews were "taken care of" for their help. He got a kick out of hearing that I had a cousin, also a boilermaker, who had helped get the crates aboard at Brooklyn.

As a follow up: I met a gunsmith a few years after meeting that boilermaker. We got to talking, and he told me his own connection to the whole crazy business. He was working as a foreman for a firearms manufacturer and sometime dealer/trader in small arms. This dealer/trader sold a substantial load of small arms to the Israelis, who arrived in civilian clothes to do the transaction. The Israelis brought a contract which bound this dealer/trader from selling to any Arab block nation or anyone connected with them. A few months later, a delegation of Egyptian officers, in uniform, bought a load of small arms from the same dealer/trader. He deftly "sold" the load to an employee, and the employee "made the sale" to the Egyptians. There is a saying that "no good deed goes unpunished", and this dealer trader got his for what he had done.

The dealer/trader got wind of the fact that NYPD was disposing of confiscated firearms by placing them in drums and filling the drums with concrete. Since this was very soon after WWII, the dealer/trader had visions of Lugers and Walters and Mauser machine pistols encased in concrete, dancing in his head. He saw a way to make a fortune from the war souveneirs. These drums were then dumped off a barge into waters not far off NYC. The dealer managed to get some idea of the position where the barrels were dumped, and hired a vessel with a couple of salvage divers to recover the barrels. He had the barrels trucked to his shop, and told his foreman (the gunsmith I met years later) to take a couple of guys and put them to busting the guns out of the concrete. Two guys started chipping away at the concrete, and soon enough, began extricating guns. All they found were guns no one would want: basic pimp guns, old strap top revolvers, sawed off shotguns. After busting concrete in several barrels, not one gun worth anything was found. The dealer/trader was out the cost of obtaining the information as to the dumping site, out the cost of hiring a vessel and crew, out the cost of trucking the barrels to his shop, and out the cost of labor to see what was in the barrels.

When I told that gunsmith about my cousin's involvement, he laughed long and hard. It had been about 50 years between the time the dealer/trader had recovered those barrels and had the worthless guns chipped out, to the time I told the gunsmith the story of my cousin. The pieces fit together handily.

My cousin has been dead a good few years. When he died, his family put a bottle of his favorite whisky and a box of his favorite cigars in his casket. He and his brother, the NYPD Captain, and some other members of NYPD were recognized by the Israelis for their help. It was one of those things no one spoke of. When it became apparent I was interested in welding and boilermaking work, and was riding motorcycles, my cousin (who had ridden an ex NYPD Indian) started to tell me the stories of his part in the gun running.

I tend to be highly suspicious when I see things that look like another layer of restrictions. I figure that if the regulatory agencies have tightened or closed every imaginable loophole in the sale or transfer of firearms, the next step is to crack down on the means to make them. I like the saying (and song) "die Gendanken sind frei" (a song sung by Allied POW's and concentration camp inmates, meaning: Your thoughts are free). As long as people's minds work, there is no regulation which will ever be all inclusive or totally effective.
 
To ADD to the fun, the owner of the Shop Fox is the captain of the US F-class precision rifle team....
Also, his other venture, Grizzly, lists a 16x40 3-phase gunsmith lathe which I think got a good review elsewhere on PM.
The shipping rules? You have to pay more to send outside of the continental US.
And the catalog shows "4 brass tipper spider bolts for support gun barrels" sticking out the back of the headstock.
 
As long as people's minds work, there is no regulation which will ever be all inclusive or totally effective.

You will notice that the propaganda dissemination organs are virtually entirely controlled by the enemy.
 
In Britain, following the publication by paladin of British author's DIY book.

The possibility of requiring licensing of metal working equipment was explored, with approaches being made to several prominant home shop machinists enquiring how it might be done.

Ironic, as that author used only hand tools, a drill press and a welder, the tools of the common man.
 
Gunsmiths in the Phillipines and Pakistan have proven that you can make a working copy of almost any firearm with a hacksaw blade and a file. Human ingenuity knows no bounds, if the situation requires it.

However, realistically, this is good only for very small numbers. For significant numbers of firearms, or ammunition, you need not just a home shop, but an actual factory. The recent hub-bub about the DHS buying 450 million rounds of ammo, for example- how the heck you gonna make 450 million rounds with a home reloading setup? You need deep draw presses, forklifts, 10,000lb rolls of cartridge brass, and so on.

NO actual war, as opposed to annoying tiny guerilla action, has been fought, much less won, without an industrial nation or three supplying weapons and ammo. Its a great romantic dream to think you can make weapons at home- I forge knives and edged weapons myself, from time to time- but when the rubber hits the road, every war, going back to the Greeks, had big sugar daddies supplying the toys. How many hundred RPG's can you make a day in your basement? Sure, we have the famous stories of the French Maquis and their home made submachine guns- but they made a couple hundred at most- the majority of their weapons came from factories, either in Germany or England.

So denying home shops the ability to make weapons has little practical value- its PsyOps, plain and simple, trying to impress the population with the reach of government, but it doesnt make any real difference in a countries ability to wage guerrilla war.
 








 
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