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50 millionths man

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you could pick up a phone and call mike at tac ops and talk to him personally. then you will know how and what he is doing to make the claims he is making. this has been hashed out several times over the years.

after starting to read the threads linked here, it sounds like the benchrest guys just flat out don't like guys that shoot "tactical" rifles. that's too bad.
 
It's an interesting statement. One that I will agree in theory is acceptable, but in reality subject to interpretation of just how those tolerances are measured or "assumed".

If you dial an object in to perfect zero on a tenths indicator, will it get cut to the same perfect zero? (there was a statement made similar to this)

I would have to see the claimed results before I could beleive them...and I also wouldn't call the claims false untill I saw them first hand either. I would merely say hmmmm....that's pretty good work:D


I will agree that accuracy and precision are directly proportional, but half of a tenth of a thousandth is a pretty small ...very, very small amount. Laser metrology would be the only way I could perceive measuring that fine of a resolution.

I think everyone would agree that each individual firearm is unique even if the most miniscule tolerances are held. Meaning that the close the tolerances are held the better the expected results should be...

For me, when setting up, the closest I can get to zero the better, but what I get after I machining, is what I get...(unless I wreck):cheers:
 
I'm the QC manager for a Swiss screw machine shop and can affirm it's pretty tough to consistently measure .00005 without special equipment. We have a couple of ground shaft jobs that have a tolerance of +/- .0001 and we have to use an air gage for inspection. Other methods won't pass a Gage R&R for us.

Checking bore to chamber alignment would be a challenge to "millionths" - not impossible, but difficult.
 
I'm the QC manager for a Swiss screw machine shop and can affirm it's pretty tough to consistently measure .00005 without special equipment. We have a couple of ground shaft jobs that have a tolerance of +/- .0001 and we have to use an air gage for inspection. Other methods won't pass a Gage R&R for us.

Checking bore to chamber alignment would be a challenge to "millionths" - not impossible, but difficult.

would kreiger and other barrel manufactures have the equipment to check this?

SniperCentral - View topic - Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)
Krieger checked ours, and reported that we were only 2 millionths misaligned.
with all due humility and respect, I submit that this is probably better than most.
If one of you would like to call "FOUL" or "BS" on this, then I refer you to call Krieger (262-628-8558) and ask for
Mike. I think he will be more than able to support our statement. By the way, they independently measured and
verified the alignment.
 
I have no problem with the claim of making the lug and receiver faces parallel. And maybe the thread being square to that tolerance. Maybe. And I'll note he makes no claims as to whether all that 'perfect' stuff he just did is actually true to the bolt bore ... which it isn't, I can just about guarantee. There's simply no way to hold a Remington action to do this work and not warp it more than that just hanging on to it. My opinion, of course ... they're about the flimsiest thing around.

As for the claim the bolt can float and align itself due to the close headspacing, there's a fairly large moment from the angled sear on a Remington, that applied at the bolt face is about guaranteed to lift a lug off it's seat.

And while I'm here, I think I may have suggested a test for Spencer's claims several years ago, to take your '20 millionths' barrel, or whatever his claim was, out of the lathe, lay it on the bench, pick it back up and put it back in the lathe and show me it's even close to that good. There again, everything you do to hold onto it is tweaking it a little, and you'll never get it back the same way it was when you cut it.

FWIW, I trued up a British Enfield No4 over the weekend. The thread, and the receiver face, were aligned better than any of the half dozen or so Remingtons I've played with. For that matter, the bolt bore was straighter too ;-)

... couple hours later ...

OK, so now that I'm liquored up a bit ...

Regardless of whether he grinds his chambering reamers to perfectly match the ammo, the runout of the case neck on a factory round is at least 10x more than he's claiming for chamber concentricity. Hell, the bullet jacket probably isn't within 3x of 50 millionths ;-)

I think it was Jackie Schmidt that said "makes for a good read", or something to that effect a couple years back.

I'd like to see how he actually checks this. If it's 'while it's still in the lathe', with a mechanical indicator, he's one of 2 things; A snake oil salesman, or delusional.

"We will charge you 200 bucks to tell you it is better" ... I like that ...
 
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repeatability =/= accuracy

Give me a rifle off by 4" but repeatable to .01 any day.
The design of the receiver, trigger group, lock time, and loading, are all more important than the precision of the action...as long as it doesn't move during a string...that said 50 uin is tight, if they have an action design they can build to that REPEATABILITY you can count on being able to switch from on to the other.

Telescope and other optics people build to this with hammers and chisels.

Remember that steel is around 7 ppm/degree F...this means that in a one inch block that 50 uin is gone completely in 7 degrees (F) of temperature change. A delta T that WILL impact you chamber pressures as well.
 
I think you will find barrelmakers have gage pins in .0001 increments and air gages.
It ain't got nothing to do with tactical shooters against BR shooters. It is about can he do it and do it on the many many rifles that he builds. Has nothing to do with him building good rifles. Some of the guys that posted on BR.Com have been longtime toolmakers. Without knowing them you shouldn't question their abilities and machining knowledge.
Butch
 
I think you will find barrelmakers have gage pins in .0001 increments and air gages.
It ain't got nothing to do with tactical shooters against BR shooters. It is about can he do it and do it on the many many rifles that he builds. Has nothing to do with him building good rifles. Some of the guys that posted on BR.Com have been longtime toolmakers. Without knowing them you shouldn't question their abilities and machining knowledge.
Butch


i'm not the one questioning any one's abilities or machining knowledge. i think if you want to know how and why mike is making the claims he is, it is probably best to get it from the horses mouth.

my comment of the benchrest guys not liking "tactical" guys was just an opinion i got from the beginning of that thread. after finishing reading the thread, it sounds like it may have been limited to one or a couple of posters.
 
"Krieger checked ours, and reported that we were only 2 millionths misaligned."

While I have no reason to doubt that Tac Ops is a very capable shop, this statement seems a bit optimistic to me. ;)
 
I think you will find barrelmakers have gage pins in .0001 increments and air gages.
It ain't got nothing to do with tactical shooters against BR shooters. It is about can he do it and do it on the many many rifles that he builds. Has nothing to do with him building good rifles. Some of the guys that posted on BR.Com have been longtime toolmakers. Without knowing them you shouldn't question their abilities and machining knowledge.
Butch


There is nothing with a higher level of accuracy, not NASA, not optics work, not fiber optics, it is rifles.... The laws of physics just do not add up with some of the claims made by gun builders. Obviously my last post here regarding barrels was proof of that. Just drill a hole in an Al tube and press a rifled sleeve in it, don't check it it any way, and others just drool like it is super accurate.

my personal take on it is half of the industry or better is BS. You are spitting a soft slug through a round tube. Do it the same way every time, the projectile weapons is considered "special".

Remember "we will machine your firing pin length to a tolerance of +/- .001. We will charge you 200 bucks to tell you it is better". Give me a break.
 
There is nothing with a higher level of accuracy, not NASA, not optics work, not fiber optics, it is rifles....



Do it the same way every time, the projectile weapons is considered "special".

first...there is work done a LOT higher than rifles...look at nano machines and optical grinding, the tolerance in optics is in nano meters.

second...it's all about consistency.
That's why doing it the same way every time is important. The truth is that it doesn't matter one bit if the gun matched print, or is the same from one to the next...as long as it hits.

The only reason it would matter is if people expected to pick up a rifle and have it be identical to the next one in production...considering that personal variations swamp the gun there is no point.
 
first...there is work done a LOT higher than rifles...look at nano machines and optical grinding, the tolerance in optics is in nano meters.

second...it's all about consistency.
That's why doing it the same way every time is important. The truth is that it doesn't matter one bit if the gun matched print, or is the same from one to the next...as long as it hits.

The only reason it would matter is if people expected to pick up a rifle and have it be identical to the next one in production...considering that personal variations swamp the gun there is no point.

I was being sarcastic. Nevermind nano tubes, guns, that is where the real accuracy is...lol

I agree with you, repeatability is what makes people think a gun is magic. I have been fed so many lines of bullshit over the years I started just asking "can you quantify your findings?" When they say "what did you just call me?" Then I know what I am dealing with.

See, you HAVE TO apply 136.246# of bolt force to the chambered round or it will not fire right. 136.245# will not do. That number popped up in some BS claim and stuck like glue. that is purely ONLY an example. Before making a claim, grab a physics books and understand a few laws, then the cloud starts to clear a bit...
 
Who cares about 50 millonths??

You get that much change in dimensions after first shot, and powder warms up action..

100% Benchrest BS.

I can walk outside with a rifle part, and get a greater dimension shift almost any day of the year.

The cartridge brass expands/contracts even more with minor temp changes..

Headspace to .001 is nuts... I can get .005 just by walking outside at -40...

How repeatable is the 50 millionths rifle, when a cloud comes by and drops temp 10 degrees??

BS BS BS

Punching a nice small group of holes in a piece of paper, with a 110 year old rifle design, is well ..... boring....

The land of old farts petting their cats...

How about the real world... No sighter/fouling shots, no midrange wind flags, range not precisely measured, might have to shoot 3 times in a couple seconds.. maybe just iron sights...

Target might be trying to eat you... ( retired military here, target might be shooting back...)

That ultra precise action just jammed up by a piece of powder residue, or a leaf fragment, or a twig, or a tiny sliver of brass shaved off of a cartridge while feeding...
 
Who cares about 50 millonths??

You get that much change in dimensions after first shot, and powder warms up action..

100% Benchrest BS.

I can walk outside with a rifle part, and get a greater dimension shift almost any day of the year.

The cartridge brass expands/contracts even more with minor temp changes..

Headspace to .001 is nuts... I can get .005 just by walking outside at -40...

How repeatable is the 50 millionths rifle, when a cloud comes by and drops temp 10 degrees??

BS BS BS

Punching a nice small group of holes in a piece of paper, with a 110 year old rifle design, is well ..... boring....

The land of old farts petting their cats...

How about the real world... No sighter/fouling shots, no midrange wind flags, range not precisely measured, might have to shoot 3 times in a couple seconds.. maybe just iron sights...

Target might be trying to eat you... ( retired military here, target might be shooting back...)

That ultra precise action just jammed up by a piece of powder residue, or a leaf fragment, or a twig, or a tiny sliver of brass shaved off of a cartridge while feeding...

just to be clear, i don't know and have never spoken to mike r. at tac-ops but the guy making these claims is not a benchrest builder. i have a feeling many of his rifles have been put to the use in the field (the real world).

Tactical Operations


"Headspace to .001 is nuts...I can get .005 just by walking outside at -40..."

tell that to any one that considers himself a precision rifle builder, whether it be benchrest, f-class, tactical, ect. and see what they say to you. just because metal moves at different temperatures, doesn't mean that someone doesn't hold a certain tolerance at the time of the build. if one builder holds their bore to chamber runout tolerance to half a thousandth and the other builder holds to half a tenth, isn't the one held to a tighter tolerance still going to closer to perfect as the temp changes? and i doubt you gain .005" of headspace by walking outside in neg 40.

your mumblings about open sights show that you have no idea the type of rifles being spoken about or what their intended uses are. precision rifles is obviously not your game and there's nothing wrong with that. some people are into precision rifles and that is what is being discussed here.
 
Some people will pay about anything to increase their odds or own the most precise thing on the planet.

I think after a certain point with ever tighter tolerances of action, barrel or stock, the money spent is wasted. Ammunition, weather or shooter skill become the bigger factors for accuracy and more difficult to control.

I can see where the guys high tolerance selling point attracts customers. My attorney is a novice target shooter who talks endlessly about a local gunsmith holding .0001" tolerance on everything. He will probably buy a rifle there at some point.
 
I will say Mike Miller is a great shooter. He was a member of the US FClass FTR world championship team.
I do not buy a .25moa rifle with factory on a consistant basis.
Butch
 
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