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Thread: 50 millionths man
05-05-2011, 05:32 PM #21
I think a 1/4 moa gun is possible at 100yd, center to center spread. Bullet diam. expands group external size if you measure that way which is pointless for accuracy testing.
I'd be interested in the 100yd tube on a visit to Denver. Is it available weekdays?
05-05-2011, 07:10 PM #22
i think butch has a question about doing it consistently with factory ammo.
i think what needs to be known is if the person making these claims shooting group after group until he finally gets a .25" group to send along with the rifle as proof or is this totally repeatable just about every time he shoots. i'm not a .25" shooter so i know even if i had a .25" rifle i couldn't do it every time. i happen to believe it is possible to make a .25" capable rifle using factory fgmm ammo, i just am not capable of proving that.
this is one i built for myself a while back. i left the shop with the rifle complete but the trigger was at home. when i got home i realized i didn't have any tools to adjust it so it was still at the factory remington setting. without a scale at the house, i guessed it to easily be 6+ lbs. my shooting spot was near the house so i grabbed a box of some old fgmm 168 grain ammo and went to test it even with the heavy trigger.
this was at 100 yards. the first round out of the new barrel was the one toward the bottom. i made a scope adjustment and the next 5 rounds were at the center dot. shots 7 through 11 were at the top right dot. keep in mind, i am NOT a .25" shooter. this was also with an 18.5" barreled "tactical" rifle dropped into a vee block chassis stock shot off a bipod prone in the dirt. i bet with a capable shooter and the trigger the way it is now it would be a .25" rifle using factory fgmm ammo.
edit: if i know i am going to be at the range at the same time as mike miller, maybe i can talk him into trying it with factory fgmm.
shots 2 through 6 out of the barrel.
shots 7 through 11 out of the barrel.
this is the rifle.
05-05-2011, 08:09 PM #23
05-06-2011, 12:07 AM #24
05-06-2011, 12:45 AM #25
05-06-2011, 07:01 AM #26
Billy May would be proud of some of this "snake oil".(Thank you Jim Rozen, the perfect words)
Some of the claims are in the area of drum lathes, Newbould indexers, and Talyronds.
Sorry Butch, but I had to change the channel. It got too deep to finish the other threads.
I will try to wade thru later.
05-06-2011, 11:53 AM #27
05-06-2011, 12:58 PM #28
Dang, three hundred bucks.
I can shoot all day long at the local 100 yd range for $17. You do
get free wind and sun to go along with it though. Hot in the summer,
cold in the winter. But the company's nice.
05-06-2011, 01:06 PM #29
05-06-2011, 01:37 PM #30
Well Butch 50 millionths of an inch is 1.27 Microns or 0.00005 Inches. I'm not the sharpest tack in the box but I do know it is possible to make measurements that small if you happen to have a lot of money to throw away. I also think there are some machines that are capable of making cuts that fine, also if you happen to have a lot of money to toss away. What is interesting is that they seem to feel that they NEED to make the claim that they do it.
I have no trouble getting work and I only guaranty that the gun will go BOOM. Sure I have had over sites and screw ups I had to fix, we all have. But I've never needed any more of a guaranty than that.
Just as a giggle I looked at his web page and low and behold his shop is located on the 4th floor of an office building. I'm not sure how he got several tons of machine tools up there. For that matter I'm not sure what keeps it from crashing through the floor.
Also, up till now I have never heard of this character and over the years at one time or another I have done warranty for Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Marlin, Mossberg, Weatherby, Kimber and Perazzi. I also have a Remington authorized proof mark and operated as a Canadian proof house. It strikes me that if this guy was gods gift to guns I would have thought some one would have mentioned him by now. I think if you turn his business card over he probably also clears bars, leaps tall buildings, converts virgins, tames lions, removes the spots from leopards, fishing guide, hunting guide, mountaineer, test pilot, astronaut AND knows the secret to the Cadbury Caramilk Bar. As I said I have never heard of him before which in itself says nothing, who the hell am I after all? But, after I close this thread. I am also certain, I will NEVER hear of him again!
I have always been, and ever shall be, extremely distrustful of in your face salesmen that make a lot of wild claims. Every time I've dealt with them I have been sorry that I did. Now I don't. Simple mathematics!
05-06-2011, 02:23 PM #31
if you followed tactical precision rifles for any length of time, you would have certainly heard of tac-ops. since your only requirement is that the gun goes boom when you are done with it, i don't think you have to worry about tac-ops using you as a warranty service center.
as far as his SHOP EQUIPMENT being on the 4th floor of an office building, come on. you are really reaching there. that is the address listed under his CONTACT INFORMATION. my contact address is not where my machinery is.
just because you, i or most anyone else do not do something a certain way, doesn't prove that someone, somewhere doesn't do it. we have no idea the conditions or tooling he is working with and i won't speculate based on what i do or what i see most other precision rifles doing.
05-07-2011, 10:57 AM #32
Just curious what caliber your rifle is?
05-07-2011, 02:35 PM #33
05-07-2011, 04:29 PM #34
Gee,I have not had a TRG 42 in the shop for a year or so.. Tacticool rifles must be so special...
Snake oil is snake oil..
Iron sights are standard backup issue for the M24 sniper rifle system (which I have a little experience with..) Redfield Palmas... Not exactly a Win model 94 in a scabbard... XM2010 looks interesting..
Only 30 years working on rifles, prefer the Semi work, rather have a quick followup shot, as I usually do not have a spotter handy with a Semi for backup...
-40 happens to be a normal winter temperature up here, unlike Placerville California. So with brass contracting at a different rate then steel, accuracy will remain constant??? Primer strike will vary, up to an easy 160 degree temp swing.. Springs are affected too.. (barrels can get hot at -40 too)
I thought barometric pressure, and temperature, were kind of inportant for precision shooting..
Precision is fine, consistant accuracy while dealing with a wide range of variables, is better..
Tactical is not Placerville CA at 68 degrees, Unless you are a Cop.
Latest Remington LTL action I had in lathe, looked like a Camshaft... Not in the TRG class by far.. (did not cost as much either...)
05-07-2011, 06:00 PM #35
so abarnsley, what is the tolerance you hold your headspace to on precision "tactical" rifles? what is the maximum runout of the bore you allow before you create the tenon and ream the chamber on a precision "tactical" rifle? what kind of accuracy do you guarantee with factory match ammo from your precision "tactical" rifles?
edit: one more thing, do you believe that dimensions only change on rifles with tight manufacturing tolerances or does it also change with the rifles you work with?
05-09-2011, 09:44 PM #36
MOA at 100 yds is roughly 1", so 1/4 moa would equal one hole in 6mm. At 1K, MOA is a bit over 10", so 1/4 MOA would be 2.5+". 2.5" at 1K is documented as incredibly high level shooting, with many factors contributing, but let us say that is largely the realm of high level bench rest accept for the occasional screamer that happens in other forms of shooting and more closely resembles the analogy of a broken clock being right two times per day, in other words, it can happen.
As far as guys holding half a tenth, my first question would be, on what?
05-11-2011, 10:04 AM #37
To say that this thread, has been thought provoking, would be an under-statement. Can a person, purchase an indicator, with graduations of .00005"?
Yes. But in all of my 45 years of building precision tooling, the standard rule,
has always been that the measuring instruments, must be able to read to 10%, of the required accuracy. Now, to realize true, verifiable, accuracy, to
+/-.00005", you need another 0, after the decimal point.
I would be willing to state that the spindle bearings, of even a new, CNC turning center, would have more clearance, than that. A part turned, or bored
on most engine lathes, is not truely round, but close enough for the average
The return on investment(ROI), has to enter this discussion, at some point.
The old statement, that declares, "We can do anything, the impossible, just takes longer.", might fit this situation. What price for perfection, that does not return a benefit, equal to the required investment?
What Kreiger says, may be different, than what can be proven, in a clean room environment.
05-11-2011, 10:41 AM #38
Well said. The first thing we learned in measurement. The Ratio of Discrimination. Ten times finer than what you are trying to measure.
05-11-2011, 05:40 PM #39
My general rule of thumb is to cut or increase the declaration by at least 50%
Example: I went to Vegas and won $1,000 bucks. Apply rule, cut by half = maybe $500.
probably more like $200 actually won.
My builds shoot 1/4 MOA = more like half MOA, (on a good day, three groups out of 10)
This works in reverse also. I went to vegas and lost a few hundred = more like 1K
Seems to be the way it works.
Last edited by bridgeport; 05-11-2011 at 07:59 PM.
05-12-2011, 12:38 AM #40
I knew a mold-maker (now deceased) that used to claim he worked to Two-Tenths. I didn't really believe him, but I never actually called him a liar.